Bass Through PA - Again - & Going Ampless - Please Simplify Things For Me!

[Bluewine]

11 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Thats where education has to come in - quieter on stage sounds, let the PA do the work. Less bleed into the mic, less stage rumble... better sound out front for the punters and less chance of you going deaf.

But as I said, that is where education has to come in.

Yeah, educating guitarists on the value of low stage volume should be real easy.

Blue

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Bluewine said:

Yeah, educating guitarists on the value of low stage volume should be real easy.

Blue

My tongue was firmly in cheek

[Tonteee]

On 18/12/2017 at 18:14, stingrayPete1977 said:

The problem with a desk like this is that it only has a single monitor mix available

Sorry to be late back to the party on this one.

Whilst I've never used this mixer amp before, I think it's a fair guess that the FX1 and FX2 outs on the front panel there are re-labelled aux busses - I suppose for you to add your own outboard FX, as required.  As such, you then have a max of 3 monitor mixes available.  In that regard, it should be quite straightforward

But coming back to the point, whacking an XLR from your amp into a channel on that thing will do no harm.  As EBS says, the PA could be worrying about the heft for you - if the cabs are up to it - for no reason, I'm guessing these are old Peavey Eurosys.  BW Equipped, natch...

[mrtcat]

On 19/12/2017 at 11:34, Bluewine said:

Yeah, educating guitarists on the value of low stage volume should be real easy.

Blue

Guitarists (or any other musician), no matter how talented, who can't see the value of volume control on stage are lacking the professionalism required for a serious working band. The band leader needs to do his / her job and deal with it. Sadly it's occasionally the band leader that's the main offender which makes it difficult to address. If i was in your situation I'd be thinking about how much better and more saleable the band would be if they could grow up and control their volume. 

[Phil Starr]

Re reading this thread I think you are on the edge of this being worthwhile at the moment. Your PA amp is pretty limited, it only produces 160W/channel into 8 ohms and 300 into 4ohms according to Behringers own manual. the 450W on the front is a peak rating not RMS. If your Peaveys are 8ohms the system won't be loud enough for bass at rock band levels. In any case by putting all your bass through the PA you'll be pushing the PA to it's limits unless you accept lower sound levels than most pub bands.

Then there's the question of monitor mixes, basically you have two mixable aux channels which are set up to run the internal effects engines (echo/reverb) but which can be disconnected or paralleled by inserting the right sort of jack into the fx sends. Not complex but you'll need to read the manual to get it working. Assuming you'll use some echo on the vocals that only leaves you one mixable monitor channel or you can use the main mix in your monitors. 

Honestly the people who most need monitors are the vocalist(s) so your one spare channel should go to them. They may be happy to share it with you but IME inexperienced vocalists like a lot of monitor and you'll probably throw them if you share their monitors.

I commend you for wanting to get as much audio clutter off the stage as possible and a fully mixed sound through the PA will ultimately be much better for your audiences but I don't think your current PA gear is up to it. By all means try it at rehearsals but I wouldn't base my purchasing plans on using the PA at this stage unless you are prepared to accept operating at moderate sound levels.

[Tonteee]

Or - left-field suggestion alert - willing to invest in the PA side...

[phil.c60]

I have read all of this with some interest, and some amazement. I know it's nearly Christmas, and it's the time of goodwill and all that, but this seems to me to be a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

Whilst for a lot of bands, mic'ing everything up including the drums, cymbals, guitar cabs, DI'ing the bass and running everything through a top class PA with in ear monitoring for everyone and maybe even a dedicated sound guy to play in a pub where the band has a small area to pack themselves in floats a lot of peoples boat it doesn't float mine. We run with backline only in a four piece blues band, vocal PA only and it works just fine for us.  We regularly get told we sound great, but I accept that we are not a "loud" band.

We set up in 25 mins including the drums. There is no clutter - the PA is passive so it's only speaker cables plus power for the mixer. I have  no effects: bass, tuner pedal, LM3 and Barefaced Compact. That's it. Guitarist (who sings) has pedal board, one power cable for that, one for his amp and two guitar leads. One mic, one lead, one stand. Harp player similar to Guitarist . Drummer has things he hits.

From reading the OP's original post, and looking at his PA mixer, it seems to me (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that thy are similar in set up to us.

If they want to change, and go down the all singing and all dancing solution as a band that's great, not my way, but hey it's your hobby/small business /whatever so you do as you please. It takes all sorts. However......if it were my band, in my situation, and I decided I wanted a new car, I'd want to know I could fit my gear in it and maybe the PA on occasions. I wouldn't be looking for something I could fit the drums in as well as my gear, but I wouldn't be looking for something I could only fit a bass and a DI pedal in either. A Caterham 7 is out.( cue people who get a wardrobe and a chest of drawers in theirs). If I turned up to rehearsal and told my bandmates that I had bought a new car so I couldn't fit my gear in any more and suggested we spend lot's of money on a new PA so we could all go through that, that we should mic up everything and all buy in ears otherwise I wouldn't be able to gig with them, what do you really, really, think the answer would be? I think it might involve an advert.

My answer is simple - I have an elderly bulletproof Nissan Almera worth £500 that refuses to die. It's what I use for gigs as I can park it anywhere and not worry about it. I can justify the expense of it because I also use it to and from work. Perhaps that's the OP's solution: stay as you are as it works  for you, and buy a cheap reliable hack for gigging.

Oh, and is a Super Compact much bigger than a decent wedge monitor capable of giving you a good bass mix? and if not, and neither will fit in your new car, who's taking your monitor for you?

[casapete]

33 minutes ago, phil.c60 said:

I have read all of this with some interest, and some amazement. I know it's nearly Christmas, and it's the time of goodwill and all that, but this seems to me to be a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

Whilst for a lot of bands, mic'ing everything up including the drums, cymbals, guitar cabs, DI'ing the bass and running everything through a top class PA with in ear monitoring for everyone and maybe even a dedicated sound guy to play in a pub where the band has a small area to pack themselves in floats a lot of peoples boat it doesn't float mine. We run with backline only in a four piece blues band, vocal PA only and it works just fine for us.  We regularly get told we sound great, but I accept that we are not a "loud" band.

We set up in 25 mins including the drums. There is no clutter - the PA is passive so it's only speaker cables plus power for the mixer. I have  no effects: bass, tuner pedal, LM3 and Barefaced Compact. That's it. Guitarist (who sings) has pedal board, one power cable for that, one for his amp and two guitar leads. One mic, one lead, one stand. Harp player similar to Guitarist . Drummer has things he hits.

From reading the OP's original post, and looking at his PA mixer, it seems to me (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that thy are similar in set up to us.

If they want to change, and go down the all singing and all dancing solution as a band that's great, not my way, but hey it's your hobby/small business /whatever so you do as you please. It takes all sorts. However......if it were my band, in my situation, and I decided I wanted a new car, I'd want to know I could fit my gear in it and maybe the PA on occasions. I wouldn't be looking for something I could fit the drums in as well as my gear, but I wouldn't be looking for something I could only fit a bass and a DI pedal in either. A Caterham 7 is out.( cue people who get a wardrobe and a chest of drawers in theirs). If I turned up to rehearsal and told my bandmates that I had bought a new car so I couldn't fit my gear in any more and suggested we spend lot's of money on a new PA so we could all go through that, that we should mic up everything and all buy in ears otherwise I wouldn't be able to gig with them, what do you really, really, think the answer would be? I think it might involve an advert.

My answer is simple - I have an elderly bulletproof Nissan Almera worth £500 that refuses to die. It's what I use for gigs as I can park it anywhere and not worry about it. I can justify the expense of it because I also use it to and from work. Perhaps that's the OP's solution: stay as you are as it works  for you, and buy a cheap reliable hack for gigging.

Oh, and is a Super Compact much bigger than a decent wedge monitor capable of giving you a good bass mix? and if not, and neither will fit in your new car, who's taking your monitor for you?

Excellent post with some very valid points. 

[fleabag]

I should take note of this as my backline has just been reduced to a Trace 4x10 combo weighing about 1000kg

Edited December 21, 2017 by fleabag

[spongebob]

I'm usually only gigging with my 1x15, on about 1/4! That always cuts through a treat - against our guitarist with a Les Paul through a Blackstar valve 2x12. We're a trio.

As I mentioned above, speaking to Alex at Barefaced, he suggested that for my volume and needs, the One10 will replicate what I use now, in a much smaller package. He says that what my 1x15 does, the BF will do the same, maybe better.

The PA thing was that if the trio band got, say, an outdoor gig without PA support, how feasible it would be to XLR out for just a little bit more cut.

The other, 'new' band is cool, as the bigger gigs always have soundmen and large PA support, so the One10 would simply be used a monitor. No need for more there.

If I had to stand on a stage with any more than 200w pumping right behind me, with no IEM or proper control....TBH, I wouldn't want to. I'd join a quieter band!

So going ampless with the current PA clearly wouldn't work, but in an emergency situation, using it for little push wouldn't hurt, I guess. But I'm hopeful that wouldn't happen, as my 115 or 112 were always more than fine on their own.