Dan Dare Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, converse320 said: As I said above, I'm trying to understand why shimming makes no difference to sound, rather than claiming that it does make a difference. I don't think guitar pickups are microphones, but I do think pickups are measuring small and complex patterns of vibrations in strings. I would absolutely have expected that the way the neck joint is formed would make a difference to the way that strings vibrate. To me, it's a bit puzzling that it doesn't. Pickups are electro-magnetic devices, so measure the amount of movement of the string within a magnetic field (not vibration - that is what a microphone does) and convert it into (a very small amount of) electrical energy, which is fed to your amp and made larger (amplified). Most differences in construction, type of wood used, etc on an electric guitar or bass have no discernable effect on that. The job of the body, neck and bridge are to hold the string securely and allow it to vibrate freely. If you went to extremes - a bass made of cardboard with a balsa wood nut and plastic bridge, to be really silly - it would affect string movement and duration of sustain by damping it heavily, but a little shim under the neck heel has no effect that we can hear or measure. It's a matter of degree. Edited December 18, 2017 by Dan Dare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
converse320 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Dan, I know a pickup is an electro magnetic device. But if a string vibrates in a magnetic field, a current is induced in the coils. So a magnetic pickup certainly measures vibration of the string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 1 minute ago, converse320 said: Dan, I know a pickup is an electro magnetic device. But if a string vibrates in a magnetic field, a current is induced in the coils. So a magnetic pickup certainly measures vibration of the string. See my other points above. You have to do something quite extreme to affect the vibration enough for it to be discernable (which is why using "tone-wood" on solid electric instruments is a waste of time and money). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
converse320 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Dan - I'm 100% agreed about tonewoods and most aspects of construction - I don't think any of them can make much difference given the way an electric bass/guitar works. Things that I would have expected to make most difference are - neck construction and particularly stiffness - neck joint or absence of one - bridge construction and how well it attaches to bass - tuning pegs and integrity on bass I'm sure I've read a paper showing that there was no impact of neck construction on sound - through/set/bolt on all sounded the same. Anyway, thanks for comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 1 hour ago, converse320 said: I'm sure I've read a paper showing that there was no impact of neck construction on sound - through/set/bolt on all sounded the same. Actually someone posted a link to an experiment Fodera did with 3 identical (or as near to identical as you can get considering that IMO every piece of wood is different) basses one each with bolt-on, set neck and thought neck construction. Whilst there was a difference in the tone between the three basses in the clips they put up, it was extremely subtle and in the context of a band mix would be completely indistinguishable. IME the most important thing to do with a bolt-on neck is to get it to sit as deep into the end of the neck pocket as is possible and this is best achieved by stringing up the guitar or bass with the neck screws very slightly slackened off and then using the force of the strings to pull the neck hard against the end of the neck pocket before tightening the neck screws fully. Whether or not there is a shim in the neck pocket has no bearing on this in the slightest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Well... this went the usual way. I use playing cards. They don't seem to compress much. I've never had a bass sound different after shimming the neck and I've shimmed a few. Just for the record, I agree that the type of wood a bass is made out of will NOT make any difference to its 'tone'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 2 hours ago, converse320 said: I'm 100% agreed about tonewoods and most aspects of construction - I don't think any of them can make much difference given the way an electric bass/guitar works. Things that I would have expected to make most difference are - neck construction and particularly stiffness - neck joint or absence of one - bridge construction and how well it attaches to bass - tuning pegs and integrity on bass Just to be argumentative, I don't think neck construction, neck joint, bridge construction and/or attachment or tuners make any difference to how a bass sounds either, but that's just my opinion of course. When I swap out stock tuners for Hipshot Ultralites there is no difference in 'tone' and they are very different, engineering-wise. In my view its strings, pickups and the position of the pickups that make the difference. Most basses sound a lot like... basses. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 13 minutes ago, discreet said: ... In my view its strings, pickups and the position of the pickups that make the difference. Most basses sound a lot like... basses. Yes, and then they get EQ'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregBass Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 On 09/12/2017 at 13:50, Dan Dare said: It sounds as if you need to raise the whole neck away from the body a little, rather than adding a shim at one end to increase the break angle, so a shim covering the entire neck pocket surface looks the way to go. Fwiw, I don't buy the arguments about decreasing resonance by introducing a tiny gap, etc. However, covering the entire neck pocket surface won't result in any gap if you do it neatly ( a piece of veneer - you can experiment with thickness - should do the trick). The geometry doesn't support this argument. If the bridge saddles are already at their lowest, you would need to raise the neck by a considerable amount to bring it back to the adjustable region of the bridge. By contrast, making a tiny change to the break angle has a large effect on the bridge adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsmedunc Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 Had a couple of vintage Fender P basses and both of them had rough grit sandpaper at the back of the pocket. I would swear it had been in there since production. Both played and sounded well. If I was ever going to shim a neck, that's what I'd use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, itsmedunc said: Had a couple of vintage Fender P basses and both of them had rough grit sandpaper at the back of the pocket. I suppose if you use sandpaper you know the shim won't slip. I would imagine that even fine grit would provide plenty of traction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsmedunc Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, discreet said: I suppose if you use sandpaper you know the shim won't slip. I would imagine that even fine grit would provide plenty of traction... I'm sure fine grit would work but I had thought that the rough grit (when tightened), would crush most of the sharp edges on the paper, make a shallower shim and stop it slipping too? Depends on the height needed I suppose. 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyerseve Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 On 18/12/2017 at 13:47, Dan Dare said: See my other points above. You have to do something quite extreme to affect the vibration enough for it to be discernable (which is why using "tone-wood" on solid electric instruments is a waste of time and money). how on earth do you reach this conclusion? Surely if this was the case all basses would be made from plywood or MDF or any other readily available and cheap material... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 3 hours ago, dyerseve said: how on earth do you reach this conclusion? Surely if this was the case all basses would be made from plywood or MDF or any other readily available and cheap material... There's plenty of basses made out of plywood - and not all of them are cheap MiJ 70s copies. Here's one from Bas Extravaganza: And another from high-end luthier Jens Ritter: And TBH there's a fine line between multi-laminate which appears to be a perfectly acceptable construction technique and "plywood". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc S Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, BigRedX said: There's plenty of basses made out of plywood - and not all of them are cheap MiJ 70s copies. Here's one from Bas Extravaganza: And another from high-end luthier Jens Ritter: And TBH there's a fine line between multi-laminate which appears to be a perfectly acceptable construction technique and "plywood". Interesting design basses there - not quite my taste, but interesting nonetheless... And yes, there is a difference between plywood and laminated wood construction Many very fine double basses (and I'm sure Cellos) are laminated construction Also, quite a number of 70's & 80's Japan basses were laminated, and far from being cheaply constructed are great quality I had a lovely 70's Japan P copy (sadly, the name / brand had been removed long before I got it) it was a damn fine body too Beautifully resonant, added to that, the pickups sounded wonderful - wish I'd kept them... and possibly should have kept the bass I got it quite cheap, and it was lovely - sold it for a small profit... but perhaps shouldn't have.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 IIRC the Bas Extravaganza bass is off-the-shelf plywood bought from his local DIY warehouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 5 hours ago, dyerseve said: how on earth do you reach this conclusion? Surely if this was the case all basses would be made from plywood or MDF or any other readily available and cheap material... I was referring to tone-woods, not inexpensive, readily available timber such as alder (used by Fender for solid bodies because it was a cheap and plentiful semi-hardwood that was easily machined). Materials such as ply and MDF can actually be quite tough on wood machining tools because of the glues, resins, etc they contain, so the saving in expenditure on material can be offset by the increased cost of replacing tool bits. I'm referring to building solid instruments out of rosewood and other fine timber. Sure, Brazilian Rosewood makes a big difference to my 1971 Martin D35 (sorry. couldn't resist bragging), but it makes no difference to a solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyerseve Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Dan Dare said: I was referring to tone-woods, not inexpensive, readily available timber such as alder (used by Fender for solid bodies because it was a cheap and plentiful semi-hardwood that was easily machined). Materials such as ply and MDF can actually be quite tough on wood machining tools because of the glues, resins, etc they contain, so the saving in expenditure on material can be offset by the increased cost of replacing tool bits. I'm referring to building solid instruments out of rosewood and other fine timber. Sure, Brazilian Rosewood makes a big difference to my 1971 Martin D35 (sorry. couldn't resist bragging), but it makes no difference to a solid. Ok so you know better than Warwick then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) There was an interesting thread on TalkBass a while back where someone fixed a neck and pickups to a plank of scrap timber and compared it to a regular bass, recording the same thing on both and posting the audio clips. After a load of boasty guff about 'tonewoods', more than half of TB members couldn't tell the difference, and I'm willing to bet that more than a few got lucky when they guessed at it. What makes the most difference in tone on an electric solid-body bass are the placement of the pickups, the pickups, the strings and to a lesser extent, the electrics. Bridge material and weight and body material are WAY down the list. IMHO, of course. Edited December 21, 2017 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 9 hours ago, dyerseve said: how on earth do you reach this conclusion? Surely if this was the case all basses would be made from plywood or MDF or any other readily available and cheap material... Not if buyers could be convnced that certain species of wood have magical tonal properties ... even if the emperor actually has no clothes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyerseve Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 14 hours ago, EssentialTension said: Not if buyers could be convnced that certain species of wood have magical tonal properties ... even if the emperor actually has no clothes. magical? there is nothing magical about the fact that different woods have different densities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 3 hours ago, dyerseve said: magical? there is nothing magical about the fact that different woods have different densities. But a solid electric instrument comprises great big chunks of wood slathered in glue and stuck together in the most ad-hoc manner imaginable. The most important qualities in a piece of "tone wood" in this situation are that it looks nice and it will be structurally sufficient for the loads put on it by the strings and the strap without making the instrument too heavy. The overall shape of the instrument is a combination of eye-catching looks and player comfort. It's not like an acoustic instrument where the type and position of every join is critically important to the overall sound of the finished instrument, and the shape greatly contributes towards the type of tone the instrument produces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 Wow - this thread's certainly kicked off since I last checked it! Fwiw I'm in the "tonewood = bollox" camp. Strings, pickups, and the monkey plucking the strings are the things that make a difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 4 hours ago, dyerseve said: magical? there is nothing magical about the fact that different woods have different densities. Indeed there isn't, but there would be if said densities made any difference to the tone of a solid-bodied instrument. Which in my view, they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 On the subject of using playing cards for a shim, does it matter what suite or indeed is a higher number better than a lower one...discuss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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