Happy Jack Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 This post is actually about Fenders, but I’ll start by veering off towards Hofners. I’ve been collecting vintage Hofners for a while and I’ve done a considerable amount of research in support of that. I was helped by the fact that Hofner usually had a very limited range of basses in production, so it’s quite easy to become expert in a relatively short time. In 1967, for example, the total main Hofner range of basses was just seven designs, two of which had extra variants for the UK market, making nine designs in total. So. We all know the racial stereotype for Germans – highly organised and logical, right? Put that next to a limited range of designs, and a limited number of components, and it’s easy to be certain what it is you’re looking at, and whether or not it’s genuine. Erm … no, actually. In a thoroughly un-Germanic fashion, the Hofner guys kept quite inadequate records because they didn’t realise they were building rare and valuable vintage basses, they were just trying to keep Brunhilde in Accounts off their back. Similarly, they routinely used whatever parts came to hand. There were other instrument makers near the Hofner factory, and it’s easy to imagine the most junior of the guys being told to go down the road to Framus and borrow a box of machine heads. Something you learn early on when researching Hofners is that almost any combination of features is possible. Rare, yes; most of them are pretty consistent. But it would be a bold Hofner fan who said something like “They never made one with [i]that[/i] binding coupled with [i]those[/i] knobs”. Back to Fenders, then. With so much fakery going on in the vintage Fender market, I can understand the pedantic obsession with tiny points of detail. No one wants to shell out megabucks for a 1969 P-bass only to be told later that Fender never used [i]that[/i] logo design before 1972. But is it really possible to be so proscriptive about what Fender did or did not do back in the day? If you could get in a time machine and go back to the Fender factory in 1968, I wonder what you’d really see. And if you told the guys working there what would become of the mass-produced basses they were churning out, and how much they would be worth 40 years later, I’d guess they’d fall about laughing. Just like the Hofner guys, I don’t imagine they thought they were making hugely-collectible rarities for the future, and the records they kept were never intended to be the vital research tools for traders of the future. I wonder how many entirely genuine, all-original Fenders from the 60’s have been dismissed as modified or out-and-out fakes, and sold for a song, because they didn’t match current opinions of what Fender were doing at the time. Just a thought … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynepunkdude Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 That was a bloody interesting read, I think your point is correct who knows what happened if Fender ran out of bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 There's already a degree of confusion over a couple of year period when they got bought by CBS, they were using up their part supplies and cobbled together a few mismatched instruments. I think somone on here owns a late 60's jazz with blocks and a binded fretboard, all original iirc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 There are people out there who document this stuff. The watchword with Fender is 'never say never', but to focus on an example you have given... If a bass has a logo on it which - in popular opinion - didn't come into use for another three years, and you ignore that popular opinion and buy it on the understanding it's genuine... you're foolhardy. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 [quote name='Buzz' post='327571' date='Nov 12 2008, 01:36 PM']I think somone on here owns a late 60's jazz with blocks and a binded fretboard, all original iirc.[/quote] Wonder if anyone can tell me: Which years did Jazzes have blocks? I'd like a rosewood board / mop blocks, what years am I looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynepunkdude Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='327573' date='Nov 12 2008, 01:38 PM']There are people out there who document this stuff. The watchword with Fender is 'never say never', but to focus on an example you have given... If a bass has a logo on it which - in popular opinion - didn't come into use for another three years, and you ignore that popular opinion and buy it on the understanding it's genuine... you're foolhardy. IMO.[/quote] Agreed when it come to parts being younger that the bass then it's obvious but when it come to combinations neck/body , machine head/bridge of the same era but in a different configuration then I guess it gets skechy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='327575' date='Nov 12 2008, 01:40 PM']Wonder if anyone can tell me: Which years did Jazzes have blocks? I'd like a rosewood board / mop blocks, what years am I looking for?[/quote] 70's for a geniune one (unless you get a mongrel like the above mentioned one), but you'll also have to contend with the 70's pup spacing (bridge pup is about 3/4 an inch further towards the bridge I think). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 [quote name='Buzz' post='327585' date='Nov 12 2008, 01:48 PM']70's for a geniune one (unless you get a mongrel like the above mentioned one), but you'll also have to contend with the 70's pup spacing (bridge pup is about 3/4 an inch further towards the bridge I think).[/quote] I had a 66 Jazz that had blocks which I think was the first year they did them. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Could be yours then Birdy that I've seen floating around the 'boards if you've posted it on here before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Binding in '66, rosewood blocks and binding shortly after. Maple and black blocks at the turn of the 70s, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='327671' date='Nov 12 2008, 03:04 PM']Binding in '66, rosewood blocks and binding shortly after. Maple and black blocks at the turn of the 70s, IIRC.[/quote] Some Binding in 65 as well I believe. I think Lawrie (Jebo1) has a 65 CAR with dots and binding. I think it went something like Dots no binding up to 65 Dots with binding 65-66 Blocks with binding 66 onwards. Not 100% about any of this and I think you are correct about the Maple and black blocks. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I don't know if Leo did this but there were times when CBS cobbled together all sorts of stuff that was lying around in the factory. I'm the original owner of a Precision with a Jazz neck, featuring a Precision Bass decal on the head. I bet that one's not in any catalogue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telebass Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 It is, actually - Precisions had a 'narrow neck' optiion for quite a number of years. Def special order, though. There's certainly not that many of them, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 (edited) In 1968? Well, you learn something new every day!! Edited November 12, 2008 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Splayer Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 who gives a damn, i have an authentic SX 75 jazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberthot Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I think Jazzes had the blocks and binding officially from 1966 but there's always periods either side of dates where things have appeared and disappeared. They continued until 1980-1 when they went back to dots and no binding. they also got rid of the 3 bolt neck and bullet truss rod as well that started on these around 1975. I have a picture in a book of an original Precision bass with blocks and binding. I think that they did offer the Precision with a narrow neck option for a while just as MM did with the Stingray I enjoy writing single line statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obbm Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 [quote name='Telebass' post='327746' date='Nov 12 2008, 04:48 PM']It is, actually - Precisions had a 'narrow neck' optiion for quite a number of years. Def special order, though. There's certainly not that many of them, though...[/quote] Yup. I have a factory built '78 Precison with a Jazz neck. As far as I can tell it is all original. Back to Jack's original pots, it still goes on today. When I got my Lakland DJ4 I wanted to know if it had the Aero pick-ups or the newer Lakland own. After several emails with the factory I discovered that it had in fact got Lindy Fralins. When asked why they told me that they'd probably run out of Aeros so put in the Fralins as they had them. It doesn't just happen with instruments. Back in the early '80s I was Registrar for the Historic Sports Car Club and used to vet eligibility. One member tried to register a McLaren M1 Canam car that had been completely rebuilt from a pair of front suspension uprights and a chassis plate. Fake or not it was still worth tens of thousands of pounds. I guess you could do the same with a bass serial number plate and a bridge, or maybe someone has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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