Live bands compress bass - since when?!

[51m0n]

17 hours ago, discreet said:

In that case, I can only conclude that most bass players are unaware of what a comp is for and what it really does - and therefore don't know how to use it properly. And the effect of proper use in any case is likely to be so subtle that it will be less than the difference to be got from using a different bass or a different set of strings.

So in the chaos of your average pub gig it's hardly worth bothering with a comp pedal and therefore you can save yourself a considerable amount of cash by not buying one. So I will do what I have done for decades, rely on professional engineers and producers to do their thing, and save myself a ton of mental grief and anguish simply by not thinking about pedal comps ever again!

It would seem that one would be better off directing one's time and effort into being a better bass player rather than dabbling with forces one does not understand... Thus will the geeks inherit the Earth! These compressor threads are a fecking minefield! I'm out!

I think this is a very interesting yet false conclusion from what I said before :).

As I said, you cannot hear subtle level differences very well soloed, your ears are compressing anything loud anyway. However masking can occur between any instruments in a mix at any and all volume levels.

If you set up a compressor 'just so' you get a slightly different envelope to your output. That can change the level by just a dB or so from where it was at that point in the note duration without compression, adding sustain/punch to your tone, which means that the other instruments that were masking you no longer do in the same way at the same time. Your overall level is the same, but your level during a note is different.

Yes the change can be tiny, but the effect of doing so is actually huge in the context of the mix. Crucially this difference in the mix is experienced at all volumes.

So in the chaos of a pub gig a compressor set up correctly can help you be heard more clearly in the mix without you turning up as loud, because you are heard better where you need to be than before.

Net result, quieter instrumentation because less volume wars since less masking, hence easier monitoring for the band, most importantly a better mix for the punters = everyone happier.

Eq should be used in much the same way, frequency mixing has been the norm for decades, used correctly it is about cutting unnecessary/unpleasant/masking frequencies from instrument A so that instrument B can be heard without having to increase its volume everywhere or boost its eq unnaturally. By the way the human ear hears boosts as more unnatural than cuts when eq-ing, you can use much tighter frequency ranges when cutting than when boosting without everything sounding horrid.

Compression should be thought of as a way to help do this with the level change during the duration of the note, rather than at a given moment in time. Eq is the opposite, it is 'always on'. And I haven't even mentioned dynamic equalisation yet, which is a real head-flip!

 

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

I will concede that most bassists don't really have an understanding of all this, its not a dig at bassists, its just the truth, then again neither do guitarists, or any instrumentalist at all. Sound engineers should, its one of the big four bread and butter parts of the job: mic'ing, eq'ing, dynamics control and space are all there is to sound engineering, add a dose of psychology and you are golden.

[51m0n]

This is what a live band sounds like with proper compression in all the right places:-

 

[Al Krow]

@Cuzzie Yup have to fess to not having been a user of pedal boards until now, thus far in my regular pub / club gigs it's been guitar lead or more recently Smoothhound straight into Markbass amp. But that's about to change in 2018 with my gigging mini pedal board ready to go...and that is part of the purpose of this thread for me: do I need to enlarge it to accomodate a compressor for live pub and club gigs or not? 

12 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

Yes the change can be tiny, but the effect of doing so is actually huge in the context of the mix. Crucially this difference in the mix is experienced at all volumes.

So in the chaos of a pub gig a compressor set up correctly can help you be heard more clearly in the mix without you turning up as loud, because you are heard better where you need to be than before.

Net result, quieter instrumentation because less volume wars since less masking, hence easier monitoring for the band, most importantly a better mix for the punters = everyone happier.

Ok that is very helpful thanks and very nearly convincing(!) BUT just how is it any different to turning up the mids, relative to the rest of the EQ and without increasing overall volume, in terms of impact? I suspect the answer to this question is going to be quite key (certainly for me) in terms of us mere mortals understanding what's going on and whether a compressor should become a standard part of our armoury or not.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Al Krow

[51m0n]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@Cuzzie Yup have to fess to not having been a user of pedal boards until now, thus far in my regular pub / club gigs it's been guitar lead or more recently Smoothhound straight into Markbass amp; but that's about to change in 2018 with my gigging mini pedal board ready to go...and that part of the purpose of this thread to me. Do I need to enlarge it to make way for a compressor for live pub and club gigs or not? 

Ok that is very helpful thanks and very nearly convincing(!) BUT just how is it any different to turning up the mids, relative to the rest of the EQ and without increasing overall volume, in terms of impact? I suspect the answer to this question is going to be quite key (certainly for me) in terms of us mere mortals understanding what's going on and whether a compressor should become a standard part of our armoury or not.

If you turn up the mids, then they are always turned up, it may not be the tone you want, it will probably mask the guitarist's low end, or worse still the vocals low end. They will subsequently feel the need to turn themselves up because they can't hear themselves now. Result = volume war, utterly dross mix, discomfort all round.

A well set up transparent compressor wont do that, it will lift your volume later in the note duration, or lower your volume at the transient (if its limiting, ie very fast attack high ratio), depending on the scenario either of these may be what is required for you and the punters to discern the bass as being the correct volume for the overall mix. Did you need gobs of eq to do it? Nope. Did you need to turn up your instrument to achieve this? No. Well yes but not the entire signal, just a part of it. And that's the magic! Imagine turning up every note 50ms after you hit the string by 3dB, then turning it back down in between each note so that the initial transient wasn't so loud. Your drummer will love you, you wont be masking his kick and snare transient, but he will be able to hear you better because you are louder once his instrument is dying away....

Edited December 14, 2017 by 51m0n

[krispn]

Baz I notice you guys run via a desk for live. If each vocal has some appropriate comp and eq they will sound great. The purpose is to provide a consistent good tone to prevent spikes in the audio mix and glue everything together coming out the speakers. We use comp live on out desk for vocals, Guitars, Drums as well as some hpf to keep everything clean and uncluttered. You can bump mids or eq and if that works for you then you guys are doing it right. Understanding eq and comp and using them appropriately and sympathetically to support you sound is the key. Let’s everything sound right and in its place. If you guys want a consistent mix comp and tasteful eq will help in that goal. 

[discreet]

36 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

I will concede that most bassists don't really have an understanding of all this, its not a dig at bassists, its just the truth, then again neither do guitarists, or any instrumentalist at all. Sound engineers should, its one of the big four bread and butter parts of the job: mic'ing, eq'ing, dynamics control and space are all there is to sound engineering, add a dose of psychology and you are golden.

Oh God, I meant to 'unfollow' this thread. OK... Back in the real world, where you've got a shed-building drummer a foot from your ear and two guitarists having a show-off volume competition as usual, the singer's falling down drunk and the guy on the desk is a clueless  a r s e,  I'd say that even the best pedal compressor, set to its optimum value for the situation, would be hard-pushed to make the bass sound any better to anyone in the room, including the bass player.

I really don't have a problem with bass players who want to use a pedal compressor - it's a free country (well it isn't, but you know what I mean) - however, IN MY OPINION a pedal compressor is of limited use TO ME. And I do know how to use a compressor. But I like to keep things simple at gigs: Fingers, bass, lead, amp.

In conclusion, I put forward the contention that anyone who can use a pedal compressor on bass - for remedial non sound-shaping purposes - and demonstrably produce a positive difference in a live situation - and without using compression on any other instrument or vocal - is probably a sound engineer first and a bass player second. Most bass players are bass players first and sound engineers... not at all.

AND NO-ONE LISTENS TO THE BASS ANYWAY! 

Edited December 14, 2017 by discreet

[cheddatom]

8 minutes ago, discreet said:

...anyone who can use a pedal compressor on bass - for remedial non sound-shaping purposes - and demonstrably produce a positive difference in a live situation - and without using compression on any other instrument or vocal - is probably...

...in a decent band, and not a band with a shed-building drummer, two guitarists having a volume competition, and a drunk singer

[discreet]

OK, this thread is making my warts bleed and I'm going to unfollow it for the good of my mental health. I don't like using a bass compressor pedal live. That is all! Enjoy going round in circles for the rest of the day folks, I've got stuff to do!

Edited December 14, 2017 by discreet

[51m0n]

Drummer and percussionist having a war, guitarist and keyboard player have a three way battle with a horn section that includes an orchestral tuba ffs!

Yeah I'll take any bit of help I can get

[Skol303]

14 hours ago, Al Krow said:

So what have the studio engineers' concluded on then in terms of  'Which compressor is best for bass'? Is it 42?

Oh gawd, that's a can of worms in itself!

I suppose the general consensus is that it's good to run bass signals through a fast FET compressor (to tame the loudest peaks) and then into a slower LA-2A style tube-opto compressor to kind of 'smooth things over'. That tends to help bring out the bass tones we're familiar with in many of our favourite recordings.

But there are lots of ways to skin this particular cat  

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, 51m0n said:

If you turn up the mids, then they are always turned up, it may not be the tone you want, it will probably mask the guitarist's low end, or worse still the vocals low end. They will subsequently feel the need to turn themselves up because they can't hear themselves now. Result = volume war, utterly dross mix, discomfort all round.

A well set up transparent compressor wont do that, it will lift your volume later in the note duration, or lower your volume at the transient (if its limiting, ie very fast attack high ratio), depending on the scenario either of these may be what is required for you and the punters to discern the bass as being the correct volume for the overall mix. Did you need gobs of eq to do it? Nope. Did you need to turn up your instrument to achieve this? No. Well yes but not the entire signal, just a part of it. And that's the magic! Imagine turning up every note 50ms after you hit the string by 3dB, then turning it back down in between each note so that the initial transient wasn't so loud. Your drummer will love you, you wont be masking his kick and snare transient, but he will be able to hear you better because you are louder once his instrument is dying away....

Ok that sounds useful / promising.

So for a 'beginner' what would be a good run of the mill typical setting to have a compressor on in terms of the basic 4 parameters (an explanation of which I've included in case useful to anyone else and also 'cos I know some pedals use different terminology - I appreciate you won't be needing these!). Assume a 0 to 10 range.

LEVEL: Controls the volume of the output. 

THRESHOLD: Sets the input level at which compression begins. 

ATTACK: Sets the amount of time before compression begins after a note is played. 

SLOPE: Controls the compression ratio, or slope. 

I appreciate that as we get better at using one of these we can then adjust around these 'mid points' depending on the venue etc. But it would good to have a 'this is good starting point in my experience' suggestion from you.

2 hours ago, krispn said:

Baz I notice you guys run via a desk for live. If each vocal has some appropriate comp and eq they will sound great. The purpose is to provide a consistent good tone to prevent spikes in the audio mix and glue everything together coming out the speakers. We use comp live on out desk for vocals, Guitars, Drums as well as some hpf to keep everything clean and uncluttered. You can bump mids or eq and if that works for you then you guys are doing it right. Understanding eq and comp and using them appropriately and sympathetically to support you sound is the key. Let’s everything sound right and in its place. If you guys want a consistent mix comp and tasteful eq will help in that goal. 

Gav - we have a simple Allen & Heath mixer into active RCF 310A speakers for pub gigs (or functions where we are providing the PA). Our desk does allow for a bit of EQ for the vocals, in particular they like to have a bit of reverb. Our 'sound check' is half a song at the start to get the volumes about right, which can get tweaked if the audience says they can't hear one of us.

It's all very simple. For more up market clubs the foh guy takes care of everything.

I guess my point here is with the approach of a "simple turn up and play" at a pub, this is not a gig to paying fans who have come to listen to your band and are looking for a great sound and if we are getting to a point where everyone is using a 'little bit of compression' it kinda feels, as @discreet put it "not the real world" and surely we're at risk of heading down something that is over-engineered and potentially disappearing up our own ars*s? Punters are much more bothered about a lively band with a lively fun set in making for a good night out!

Edited December 14, 2017 by Al Krow

[51m0n]

Just now, Skol303 said:

Oh gawd, that's a can of worms in itself!

I suppose the general consensus is that it's good to run bass signals through a fast FET compressor (to tame the loudest peaks) and then into a slower LA-2A style tube-opto compressor to kind of 'smooth things over'. That tends to help bring out the bass tones we're familiar with in many of our favourite recordings.

But there are lots of ways to skin this particular cat  

Yeah but the dbx just SLAMS the bass, bro!

Skol i sspot on, 1186 in 'smash' mode (all 4 buttons down for ultra high ratio) to level the hell out of peaks and an La2a big fat yummy squeeeeze for the grunt work is most engineer's Holy Grail.

Of course if any of you guys see a Fairchild 670 in a car boot sale going for anything under 5G then I'll take it off your hands for my live rig, you wouldn't want it

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

Oh gawd, that's a can of worms in itself!

I suppose the general consensus is that it's good to run bass signals through a fast FET compressor (to tame the loudest peaks) and then into a slower LA-2A style tube-opto compressor to kind of 'smooth things over'. That tends to help bring out the bass tones we're familiar with in many of our favourite recordings.

But there are lots of ways to skin this particular cat  

The most highly regarded fast FET compressor I'm aware of is the Cali 76 CB - agreed? And the hpf and clean blend on this seem to be really nice additional touches. It's not cheap even second hand.

What would be good examples slower LA-2A style tube-opto compressor?

If you were choosing just one of the two types - which would you go for?

[Skol303]

3 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

Yeah but the dbx just SLAMS the bass, bro!

I know mate... too much time on Gearslutz for me too

DBX is nice though. I don't have one myself but have borrowed one (500 series). Relatively cheap too.

Oh bollocks... I'm getting GAS and I'm not even on Gearslutz!

Edited December 14, 2017 by Skol303

[Cuzzie]

 

@Al Krow I know we have digs at each other, but in essence there are a range of opinions here, in which some will be personal, some will be generic, but the overriding thing throughout this whole thread is listen to how things sit, really try something to see if it works, and then be how much and if it’s worth it @5im0n has been very eloquent indeed about compression and it’s uses as well as a load of other things. @discreet has his personal view that I fully respect and works for him, someone likes a spectracomp, another an MXR........

 

it may ir may not make a difference for you, and you can sit in the fence and debate or really jump in like you have done with other pedals which is really cool and spend time in using them and tweaking them.

2018 will be fun for you, the only thing you have wrong is your definition of world class bands!

[51m0n]

27 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Ok that sounds useful / promising.

So for a 'beginner' what would be a good run of the mill typical setting to have a compressor on in terms of the basic 4 parameters (an explanation of which I've included in case useful to anyone else and also 'cos I know some pedals use different terminology - I appreciate you won't be needing these!). Assume a 0 to 10 range.

LEVEL: Controls the volume of the output. 

THRESHOLD: Sets the input level at which compression begins. 

ATTACK: Sets the amount of time before compression begins after a note is played. 

SLOPE: Controls the compression ratio, or slope. 

I appreciate that as we get better at using one of these we can then adjust around these 'mid points' depending on the venue etc. But it would good to have a 'this is good starting point in my experience' suggestion from you.

Right, compressor talk 102 in short then (if you know this stuff, skip it etc etc etc):-

OK so there are 5 not 4 parameters, and they are as follows:-

THRESHOLD LEVEL (level above which the compressor starts compressing)

ATTACK TIME (time taken to reach n% of your total compression ratio, this is complicated by the fact that different circuits do this with different curves and get closer to 100% of the ratio by this time)

RELEASE TIME (time to turn the ratio back down to 1:1 after the signal drops below the threshold)

RATIO (slope) (amount that the compressor prevents the sound getting as loud as it would otherwise, ie 4:1 means the output is 1/4 of what it would have been)

MAKE UP GAIN (level) (amount of gain to apply to the signal after compression, its always on though, not only when the threshold is exceeded)

If you are looking to add a little 'something' extra to your bass tone, but don't have hella ears/metering/experience then I suggest this process:-

Initial set up (this is actually all about setting the threshold level very accurately):-

Set the attack to about 20ms, the release to 200ms the ratio to max (at least 10:1), make up gain leave at unity (0)dB

Then playing at a quietish level on the A string lower the threshold slowly until either you first meter light (3dB) lights up or you hear it start to squeeze the volume.

OK, this is entirely unusable right now, except from now on pretty much every note you play normally will start to compress (oh my God, think of the poor dynamics!!!)

Second stage to set up:-

So, we now set the ratio way back down to as low as it goes (1.5 to 1, or 2:1 are good)

Set the attack back to about 50ms

Set the release to about 45ms

Play normal stuff. Turn the compressor off, and on, try and equalise the volume with the make up gain so that the volume is consistent whether the compressor is off or on.

Now if you need a bit more 'bite' to your tone open up the attack a little, if the initial transient peak is too loud, or you want to hear the compression happen when you dig in then speed up the attack (faster than 25ms will getting very frustrating dynamics freaks!)

If you feel your playing is choked by this lower the ratio, if you feel its not doing enough in the mix try raising the ratio very slighty (2.5:1 would be an absolute maximum)

If you play streams of notes one after another legato and the attack of the first note is loud compared to the following notes' transients shorten the release even more (10ms is fine), I play a lot of 16th note lines, my release time is very very short

Don't worry if you only see the 3dB light when you slam the strings as hard as you can, you know you are always compressing, just slightly, and just the meat of the note, after the initial transient peak.

There you go you've effectively emulated a tube channel that is creeping in to saturation, on the meat of the note but left your transients untouched, and you aren't distorting.

Hope this helps someone.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by 51m0n

[Al Krow]

Marvellous cheers 51m0n, I'll come back and digest that at some point in the day.

[51m0n]

25 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The most highly regarded fast FET compressor I'm aware of is the Cali 76 CB - agreed? And the hpf and clean blend on this seem to be really nice additional touches. It's not cheap even second hand.

What would be good examples slower LA-2A style tube-opto compressor?

If you were choosing just one of the two types - which would you go for?

The Cali is an attempt to get a Urei 1176 into a pedal. It wont sound quite like a really nice blackface 1176 though, or a blueface. Its not running at the right voltage for a start. A tip top one of those would be in my rack but A) they're super expensive,  and B) They aren't light and are relatively fragile.

As for an La2a that would be the PC-2A

I have a VCA with a limiter built in, a Focusright Compounder. sounds great, super tweakable and nice metering. But I carry a rack.....

Edited December 14, 2017 by 51m0n

[Skol303]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

What would be good examples slower LA-2A style tube-opto compressor?

Great question. And this exposes my lack of knowledge as someone who is a (purely amateur!) studio engineer first and bass player second! So the gear I'm most familiar with is rack-mounted or software-based, not in foot pedal form.

I am aware of the Cali 76 and that gets a lot of praise from the music community. LA-2A style compressors are much more rare in pedal form and I have no personal experience of using any of them... but you might want to check out some of these:

http://www.effectrode.com/pc-2a-compressor/pc-2a-compressor-in-depth/

http://www.diamondpedals.com/products/compressor/

http://www.joemeek.com/floorq.html

http://www.demeteramps.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53

http://www.oldworldaudio.com/gear/1960.html

If your live rig has scope for rack-mounted gear, then a good option might also be the Golden Age Project COMP-2A. That's perhaps the most gig-ready and 'affordable' LA-2A style compressor that I'm aware of (and by 'affordable' I'm still talking £560, so not cheap).

Welcome to the world of compressor GAS. Please leave your credit card at the door 

[51m0n]

Yeah forget basses and bass gear, you don't even get to claim 'its expensive' in the mad world of pro sound engineering if it costs less than 10G

[MGBrown]

I struggled with compressors until I tried and bought a Diamond. It is easy to dial in too much with some compressors.

The Diamond works exactly as other posters in this thread have described, is pretty foolproof (difficult to get it wrong), has a nice 'sheen' & makes you and the band sound tight!

Very subtle but it's a great help to the overall mix.

http://www.ovnilab.com/

[krispn]

This thread should be renamed Dr. Sound or: How I Learned to Stop Increasing Volume and Love Compression.

@Al KrowIf you don't get compression or see the need for it that's OK. You guys sound good in the tracks I've heard.

My thoughts on comp/eq/live sound:

A few dB of tasteful eq and comp is like salt and pepper to your mix

Compression is about allowing the whole band to breathe as a unit and the 'sympathetic' use of comp along with the 'sound reinforcement' application of EQ allows everyone to hear and be heard - it doesn't have to sound fake in the process or too bloody loud!

If I go to a gig or I'm gigging I want the band to have a decent sound, room permitting, regardless of the venue or if the punters know us or not.

The world of mixing and sound is a wicked mistress!

 

[Al Krow]

Thanks Gav.

Cheers for saying that you think we sound good in the tracks you've heard, that's kind...if any of the rest of you are interested then I've uploaded a couple of vids on my profile, so you can agree / disagree. But as I say we have a relatively simple approach to our sound and thus far compressing the bass has not featured. But it's not that any of us are too thick to 'get' compression, it's more a case of does it really make any difference in your typical pub gig?

Am I correct in thinking what you are recommending is using compression for the full band and not the just bass player? That is taking it to whole another level.

If you have a relatively simple mixing desk with EQ (as we do) with no in-built compression, how are you proposing to include band level compression?

I think the earlier comments of not being too loud hold true generally. There are three drivers to how loud a band is: how loud the drummer is; how loud the guitarist is; how loud the PA has been turned up. It's almost NEVER driven by how loud the bass player is in my experience - bassists typically adjust their volumes to fit in with the rest of the band, right?

Making sure we bassists cut through the mix - well it's the opposite of being muddy isn't it? Strings, pups, cab, playing technique, not using an Orange head, making sure the mids are set at a reasonable level and not scooped are IMHO the BIG factors. They are the omelette. Compression may well add a bit of seasoning at the end - particularly with your suggestion of it being done at a band level (if I've understood you correctly) and by a competent sound engineer rather than just a pedal on the bassist's board.

 

[krispn]

I mean 'don't get it' in why do we need it we sound fine without it not in you don't understand the principles I was talking in general about comp/eq what can benefit one instrument can benefit a band.

Your original post was about compressing the bass live. Without revisiting d.i., tube amps etc etc and every type of compression being generated by all the pieces of the signal chain..The whole band will be compressed live if the sound man has a capability or capacity to do so as it will make the mix better. If you want to do it at 'stage level' it's down to the band and players.

In my choir band we have compression going on - me, the guitars, the fiddle all via their fx boards/pedals- not very much but enough to season the mix. Let's the cleans sparkle a bit, tightens up the drive, keeps acoustic guitars in check (though that's usually via di to the desk with...yup.. comp). We all noticed when the fiddle player got a new Zoom unit and the fiddle just sat better than the previous set up. With the new unit she sounded like she was part of the band 'in the mix' not on top of the mix. Hard to quantify but it was audible in the room.

If you guys want individual compression you'd have to supply yours via pedals individually or via out board etc for the band. You could hook up a comp to aux on your desk but a universal setting wouldn't cover the individual needs of each channel i.e. what works for acoustic may not be useful for vox.

Our desk is a Presonus 16.0.2. If you guys are upgrading in the future and they're pretty reasonable second hand. Certainly worth a look down the road.

A band volume is usually dictated by the drums. If the guitar is louder than the drums then maybe the guitarist should rethink his eq and volume. If the PA is only for vox/acoustic then it again should be set to match the drummer and blend in with the whole mix. We never really need to be as loud as we think we should. I've done numerous gigs where the guitarist has had a Blues Jr 15w on stage and it was plenty with decent monitors. We can all take responsibility for our own sound be that with or without a comp on the board.

A good sound man may have less to do if he's getting a good source to begin with - from me it's normally a straight d.i. - FOH is his business, on stage with the band mix is mine.

Edited December 14, 2017 by krispn