Live bands compress bass - since when?!

[51m0n]

48 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'm of the view that becoming a very competent bass player is something that takes consistent effort over a period of years; there's an element of arrogance to think that we can become competent sound engineers in a much shorter period and without equivalent effort. I guess we can get to "good enough" on the mixing side in a shorter span just as we can on basic bass. It then becomes a matter of our priorities as to where our passion lies and where our time gets spent.

Over 30 years practice so far, still learning. It's just one of those things.

The sooner you start studying this stuff the sooner you can apply what you've learnt....

[T-Bay]

We have the joy and despair of a mate with the most amazing ear for music. Why joy and despair? Joy on the rare gig he can make when we know we will sound as good as we possibly can, despair that we have to try and get close to that when he isn’t there.

Edited January 8, 2020 by T-Bay

[pete.young]

47 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

Over 30 years practice so far, still learning. It's just one of those things.

The sooner you start studying this stuff the sooner you can apply what you've learnt....

That's cool, I'm going to start now and I should have just about cracked it by the time I'm 90 🙂

[krispn]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I'm of the view that becoming a very competent bass player is something that takes consistent effort over a period of years; there's an element of arrogance to think that we can become competent sound engineers in a much shorter period and without equivalent effort. I guess we can get to "good enough" on the mixing side in a shorter span just as we can on basic bass. It then becomes a matter of our priorities as to where our passion lies and where our time gets spent.

An element of arrogance to want to equip oneself to help the band problem solve sound issues which, if left unresolved, will make the gig less enjoyable for everyone in the room irrespective of how engaging a singer is or how tight the groove?  An element of arrogance in trying to offer help to a band mate who's talked himself into a corner and is standing at a desk twisting knobs, sweating like bastard all the while making the issue worse?

The difficulty with sound management/engineering, especially in a proper live environment, is few of us have access to a live gigging band, venue and a desk on a whim. 'Practicing' sound and mixing becomes the realm of 'mixing stems' mucking about with home recording etc to try and gain a basic grasp so when we do have to manage these issues we can do our best. It's reasonable to expect I wont become expert (10,000 hours - I just don't have the spare these days) but we can become competent or apply some good solid principle to manage ourselves.

Example: I never knew anything about eq'ing a fiddle until we had a fiddle player join the band. I did know a bit about eq, some frequencies and how to mitigate feedback. When we got a fiddle player I read up, re-read the manual for our desk and the sound tips it gave, started following producers on line etc.

I'm a competent bass player in that I can learn a song, follow a kick drum pattern and throw the thumb into the bass if needed but I'll never set the world alight. I'm no sound engineer but I've been gigging and rehearsing since I was 16 and in that time I've learned a bit from listening, asking questions,  watching proper sound men, 'doing the sound'. I recall a local festival and spending about a week offering to help with set up of the stage, doing messages and being the dogsbody - basically hanging about the desk and learning from the lads, asking questions, helping wrap cables (after I was shown the correct way to do so) etc. I've been playing and gigging on and off since then and 'done the sound' at a number of rehearsals for my own bands and my friends bands. Later on I was in a band with folks who had music degree's and one a masters in music and sound design (learned a helluva lot in that band -I recall we were recording some guitar parts and I showed up to the rehearsal room and the guitarist had two different 212 guitar amps mic'd with four different mic's - two different pair's per amp to record the rhythm guitar parts! I learned A LOT in those few years both in recording and a lilte bit of mixing!).

I wouldn't say I'm arrogant but I've just got a little experience over the last 25-ish years.

[Al Krow]

@krispnnot sure that you and I are saying anything different here? My point is that we are foolish to think that becoming a competent sound engineer is something we can do overnight. It seems to me you're saying you've got there over 25 years. No conflict whatsoever in those two statements! 

[Cuzzie]

7 hours ago, krispn said:

An element of arrogance to want to equip oneself to help the band problem solve sound issues which, if left unresolved, will make the gig less enjoyable for everyone in the room irrespective of how engaging a singer is or how tight the groove?  An element of arrogance in trying to offer help to a band mate who's talked himself into a corner and is standing at a desk twisting knobs, sweating like bastard all the while making the issue worse?

The difficulty with sound management/engineering, especially in a proper live environment, is few of us have access to a live gigging band, venue and a desk on a whim. 'Practicing' sound and mixing becomes the realm of 'mixing stems' mucking about with home recording etc to try and gain a basic grasp so when we do have to manage these issues we can do our best. It's reasonable to expect I wont become expert (10,000 hours - I just don't have the spare these days) but we can become competent or apply some good solid principle to manage ourselves.

Example: I never knew anything about eq'ing a fiddle until we had a fiddle player join the band. I did know a bit about eq, some frequencies and how to mitigate feedback. When we got a fiddle player I read up, re-read the manual for our desk and the sound tips it gave, started following producers on line etc.

I'm a competent bass player in that I can learn a song, follow a kick drum pattern and throw the thumb into the bass if needed but I'll never set the world alight. I'm no sound engineer but I've been gigging and rehearsing since I was 16 and in that time I've learned a bit from listening, asking questions,  watching proper sound men, 'doing the sound'. I recall a local festival and spending about a week offering to help with set up of the stage, doing messages and being the dogsbody - basically hanging about the desk and learning from the lads, asking questions, helping wrap cables (after I was shown the correct way to do so) etc. I've been playing and gigging on and off since then and 'done the sound' at a number of rehearsals for my own bands and my friends bands. Later on I was in a band with folks who had music degree's and one a masters in music and sound design (learned a helluva lot in that band -I recall we were recording some guitar parts and I showed up to the rehearsal room and the guitarist had two different 212 guitar amps mic'd with four different mic's - two different pair's per amp to record the rhythm guitar parts! I learned A LOT in those few years both in recording and a lilte bit of mixing!).

I wouldn't say I'm arrogant but I've just got a little experience over the last 25-ish years.

Good work fella, it’s nice to see someone interested in their own personal instrument craft as well as the craft of others, their instruments and what they do for the betterment of a band they are playing in and how they all fit together.

Its the little things even before we get to EQ etc like what pick ups/guitar does the guitarist use, how are the drummers snare/toms etc tuned and how do they play - then you can look at P vs J bass etc. To fit.

Its all about musical sensitivity, intelligence and feel

[51m0n]

23 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@krispnnot sure that you and I are saying anything different here? My point is that we are foolish to think that becoming a competent sound engineer is something we can do overnight. It seems to me you're saying you've got there over 25 years. No conflict whatsoever in those two statements! 

You can get the basics down in about 6 hours of being taught Al. I did all those years ago.

How to set up mics, gain staging, eq, compression, delay and reverb to produce good FOH and monitor mixes. Then it's a case of doing as much practice mixing with stems and as many what I tend to call full technical rehearsals as possible. It's only with all the kit set up that you get to ring out monitors, and FOH for instance, handle multiple monitor mixes as well as FOH.

If you are self learning then the hardest part these days is sifting through conflicting info. It will take at least 10 times longer to really get to grips with the basics imo. 

So not as fast as I learned Hey Joe when I first had a bass put in my hands, but way quicker than the time it took to go from scratch to playing the RHCP version of Higher Ground perfectly.

[Osiris]

@51m0n, @krispn, wind it in will you?

This is Basschat. And we're talking about compression. Again. Your facts, supported claims and hard earned knowledge through years of experience are not welcome here. 

Take it elsewhere. 

[krispn]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

@krispnnot sure that you and I are saying anything different here? My point is that we are foolish to think that becoming a competent sound engineer is something we can do overnight. It seems to me you're saying you've got there over 25 years. No conflict whatsoever in those two statements! 

Using ‘arrogant’ perhaps triggered me a little and I certainly wasn’t suggesting that it can be learned in 5 minutes.

I simply agree with 51m0n - learning a few basic concepts doesn’t take a lifetime and we become ‘better’ band members if we can help problem solve sound issues on a gig.  

I don’t see how ‘sound management’ and it’s basic concepts would be any more of a struggle to employ than many other concepts. A couple of wee cheat sheets or spread sheets in the gig bag and we’re half way there!

I’ve attached two of mine below and the singer/volume guy has one I’ve done out for the basics of Eq’ing the kit.

 

 
Yes I did laminate my little feedback helper chart but it comes to every gig. The fiddle one ....well a picture of that on the phone is plenty😀

Edited January 9, 2020 by krispn

[Bassmidget209]

I'm just curious, this thread has been ongoing for over two years. Has anyone's opinion changed regarding compression or has this been a spectacular argument with no end in sight?

[BigRedX]

7 minutes ago, Bassmidget209 said:

I'm just curious, this thread has been ongoing for over two years. Has anyone's opinion changed regarding compression or has this been a spectacular argument with no end in sight?

It's all pretty pointless, and it has been said many times on both this thread and others about compression; the only bassists who can guarantee that there is no compression going on in their live bass sound are those who:

1. don't put the bass guitar through the PA
2. don't have any devices with valves in them in the signal path
3. have no devices producing drive or distortion in the signal path
3. can definitely say that they are are not clipping the input circuitry of any device in the the signal path
4. have an amp and speaker with plenty of headroom still available when playing at maximum volume at a gig.

Which rules out everyone except those who use a low output passive bass going directly into a non-valve amp with an input level indicator that never comes on, and which is being run well within it's maximum output level and driving speakers rated far in excess of the amps maximum output capabilities.

[Stub Mandrel]

8 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

1. don't put the bass guitar through the PA
2. don't have any devices with valves in them in the signal path
3. have no devices producing drive or distortion in the signal path
3. can definitely say that they are are not clipping the input circuitry of any device in the the signal path
4. have an amp and speaker with plenty of headroom still available when playing at maximum volume at a gig.

Which rules out everyone except those who use a low output passive bass going directly into a non-valve amp with an input level indicator that never comes on, and which is being run well within it's maximum output level and driving speakers rated far in excess of the amps maximum output capabilities.

Hmm, that's pretty much me when I have all my effects switched out.

But I think the question wasn't about incidental compression but about deliberately introducing it; there's a big difference between the compression inherent in the system and controllable compression you add on purpose.

A bit like saying don't use filters on your camera, as without them it won't replicate colours perfectly anyway.

If you have, for example, a valve amp driven hard, then you might decide there's no benefit. For me with a solid state combo that only lights the light in Can't Stop it makes a very noticeable difference to add compression.

13 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

I've used a compressor of varying types on my bass rig for as long as i can remember whether its built into the amp head or on a pedal. Depends on who's sound i'm trying to replicate at the time. Generally tho its barely on and acts more lie a limiter than anything else.

My old Laney head has a cheap IC in it (NE571) that I always assumed was wired up just as a 2:1 range compressor.

Having compared the datasheet and the schematic it's not conventional as the reference voltage is derived from the power amp output, a bit hard to decide exactly what is happening but I think it combines range compression and limiting (by increasing the compression as the power amp output rises). They only use half the IC.

If anyone can figure it out from the attached....

ProBassPreamp.pdf NE570 compander.pdf

[krispn]

2 hours ago, Bassmidget209 said:

I'm just curious, this thread has been ongoing for over two years. Has anyone's opinion changed regarding compression or has this been a spectacular argument with no end in sight?

 That’s Internet forums summed up beautifully! Now wait for the pedant to tell me forum is Latin and the plural.....

Ahhh the Internet 🤗

[dmccombe7]

I only just saw this thread today.

So to recap what did everyone else say about compression 

 

[Al Krow]

23 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

I only just saw this thread today.

So to recap what did everyone else say about compression 

Many BC'ers swear by compression. 

Others never bother and haven't lost any bookings or sleep over it. 

99% of bass players can't dial in a compressor to save their lives. 

99% of the bass players @chris_b has come across in 40 years of bass playing don't use one live.

@51m0n has the patience of a saint. Mostly.

Did I miss anything? 😄 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Al Krow

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

But I think the question wasn't about incidental compression but about deliberately introducing it; there's a big difference between the compression inherent in the system and controllable compression you add on purpose.

But IME those bassists who say they don't use/need compression, when you look at the signal path from the bass to the audience's ears there is almost always something in there producing compression as a side-effect to whatever else it is doing sonically, or it is being applied post-rig by the PA engineer.

[krispn]

49 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Many BC'ers swear by compression. 

Others never bother and haven't lost any bookings or sleep over it. 

99% of bass players can't dial in a compressor to save their lives. 

99% of the bass players @chris_b has come across in 40 years of bass playing don't use one live.

@51m0n has the patience of a saint. Mostly.

Did I miss anything? 😄 

Just add this to the first post and it’ll save folks a heap of time🙂

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, krispn said:

Just add this to the first post and it’ll save folks a heap of time🙂

Ah but it's about the journey as much as the destination, right? 😉

[Al Krow]

40 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

But IME those bassists who say they don't use/need compression, when you look at the signal path from the bass to the audience's ears there is almost always something in there producing compression as a side-effect to whatever else it is doing sonically, or it is being applied post-rig by the PA engineer.

For sure.

But this was a really good explanation of the further discussion:

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

But I think the question wasn't about incidental compression but about deliberately introducing it; there's a big difference between the compression inherent in the system and controllable compression you add on purpose.

And, in particular, around the subject of having a pedal board with a compressor on it which is perhaps the most relevant point for your average BC'er.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

Or buying an amp that has a compressor on it, as opposed to one without

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Many BC'ers swear by compression. 

Others never bother and haven't lost any bookings or sleep over it. 

99% of bass players can't dial in a compressor to save their lives. 

99% of the bass players @chris_b has come across in 40 years of bass playing don't use one live.

@51m0n has the patience of a saint. Mostly.

Did I miss anything? 😄 

So i'm a 1% er then.

I did actually read most of the thread cause there was some interesting stuff in it altho nowt to do with compression.

I always go for compressors with simple functionality. My comp pedal literally has a "drive" control and an output level control. Does enough for me.

Amp has Threshold and Ratio and i set them up as per Mesa instructions. I did read up on compressors many many moons ago but it got lost in the cobwebs of my head hence the simple ones these days.

To be honest mine is doing so little i could do without it. ......but i probably wont after such a long time. 

Dave

[jacko]

48 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Amp has Threshold and Ratio and i set them up as per Mesa instructions.

I've found the paragraph on the Threshold control to be a bit confusing with what seem to be conflicting instructions.....

THRESHOLD:This control determines the attack threshold at which the compression effect will be triggered. Basically, it is a sensitivity control with 0db being the least sensitive and -40db being the most sensitive. The more you turn the control clockwise, toward -40db (maximum sensitivity), the lower you are setting the threshold - and the softer (lower) the signal strength has to be before the compression effect is triggered. Think of it as a ceiling you are setting that the dynamic events in your playing cannot pass above.
The setting of the THRESHOLD will likely want to be set differently for different types of playing styles and techniques. For example the THRESHOLD setting might want to be set lower (toward -40db) for finger-style playing than it would for thumbing or plucking where the attack transients and output from the strings is higher (assuming you want to trigger the compression on just the dynamic peaks). If you want the compression on all the time, set the THRESHOLD lower still and you will trigger it so that any input from your instrument will activate the compression.

FWIW I have both at around 9pm and the light doesn't flicker much when I'm playing

[Stub Mandrel]

Just an observation for the hopelessly lost...

While distortion and signal processing pedals often sound good with one or more setting 'dialled', the typical compressor pedal is usually designed to give a usable general purpose result with all the knobs set at 12 o'clock so this makes an obvious place to start.

 

[dmccombe7]

25 minutes ago, jacko said:

 

FWIW I have both at around 9pm and the light doesn't flicker much when I'm playing

Yep that's where mine are set on the Mpulse amp. 

Does depend on the bass i'm using too as some have slightly higher outputs than others but its negligible so not worth adjusting. On occasion i'll tweak my input GAIN up or down to get same desired effect with the compressor.

No input limiter or clipping light on the Mesa head so its up until it noticeably (to my ear) distorts and then pull it back a touch so i think i'm usually up around the 1-2pm area. My EQ sits around Bass and treble at 12-1pm and Mid 12pm when using my Sandberg VM4. No Para EQ unless a boomy stage where i have the low frequency on a slight cut to tighten things up a bit down there.

Dave

 

[dmccombe7]

3 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Just an observation for the hopelessly lost...

While distortion and signal processing pedals often sound good with one or more setting 'dialled', the typical compressor pedal is usually designed to give a usable general purpose result with all the knobs set at 12 o'clock so this makes an obvious place to start.

 

On the Mesa that might be almost correct if i brought my input gain back to 12 i'd need to up the comp settings Might try that next time out just out of curiosity.

On my Aphex comp that is about spot on with both Drive and output level and bass volume on full. Again that would be compression only just being triggered for me.

Dave