Live bands compress bass - since when?!

[discreet]

57 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Out of interest, what is your signal chain in terms of bass / pups (passive of active EQ), amp and cab (and pedals)?

Is there something about them that isn't making your bass sound big, fat and lush? Or are you saying that the Diamond will potentially provide that 'extra' sparkle for any signal chain?

Whatever kit you have and regardless of how happy you are with your 'tone', the Diamond will instantly improve it and add an indefinable professional 'sheen'.

It's a great circuit and just having it in your chain does the trick. It won't make you a better player, though. It's not that good.

Edited December 13, 2017 by discreet

[Cuzzie]

Did I mention Kings X were the world class band ever

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, discreet said:

Whatever kit you have and regardless of how happy you are with your 'tone', the Diamond will instantly improve it and add an indefinable professional 'sheen'.

It's a great circuit and just having it in your chain does the trick. It won't make you a better player, though. It's not that good.

Ok that's sounding like a must have, then!  I've been reliably informed that the Cali merely makes you more sexy and able to get groupies flocking around you. But clearly a diamond is a bass guy's best friend...

[krispn]

Yup that’s my take on the Cali 76cb. The tonal color from the Cali is more that it enhances the presence of the overall sound with out adding an eq type color as it were. It has the effect of creating a ‘mixed’ feel to the bass within the band. You too can sound like a semi pro!

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Did I mention Kings X were the world class band ever

Kings X were the [???] world class band ever.

Insert as applicable... @dood?

Edited December 13, 2017 by Al Krow

[51m0n]

And he we are again, what are transparent compressors good for in a pub band?

Not about to try and teach anyone to suck eggs, if you know this stuff, sorry for the post, if you are not really interested please skip it, if you want to know why a compressor might help you in a live situation when it apparently 'does nothing' or 'kills my dynamics' then feel free to have  a read. Its like a very cut down compressor 101 chat I gave once, which some of you are still scarred by.....

Originally compression was supposed to be a transparent tool to prevent an engineer from having to ride a fader throughout a take or a mix.

All it was supposed to do was keep that level more even - as often as not by just slightly modifying the envelope of the input sound, hence the attack and release control.

And with VCA compressors they pretty much achieved it. But before VCA compressors there were Vari-mu compressors (real tube compressors), Optical compressors and FET compressors.

All these types have pluses and minuses, they all have different attack and release curves all of which do more than just transparently alter volume and help out an engineer.

On top of these types of compressor there is tape compression and and amp/driver compression - no driver is completely compression free when you push it hard, no amp is compression free when you push it hard, all overdrives and distortions and fuzzes are also compressors, just totally not transparent ones. The best ever compressor you will ever experience is the pair you have strapped on to the side of your head all day. Yes your ears/brain are simply the most powerful compressor you can buy. The quietest sound you can hear is equivalent to your ear drum moving the width or a single molecule apparently, whilst the loudest sound you can hear before deafening yourself pretty much instantly is hundreds of thousands of times louder (you need to look into the way sound pressure level measured in micro pascals and decibels work as units of measurement).

That amazing set of compressors on the side of your head has an unfortunate side effect, without a direct reference you are almost totally volume blind, small changes in volume are beyond you to describe, you can not reliably perceive them. Unless they are compared to a level that has not changed and is not changing. Obviously bigger differences are easy to perceive but the differences that can make or break a mix, if you aren't listening to the the mix happening at the time, nope, not  a hope.

So a deliberately transparent compressor you can't hear working on your signal in isolation, until you are doing way to much with it, and thats about when you feel your dynamics disappearing, because you are doing huge amount of compression in order to hear anything much at all. In a mix way less compression would be 'enough' to change the envelope of your signal to make your instrument be easier to hear, but you aren't in a mix so in order to hear anything at all you put way too much compression on.

Thing is, a studio engineer has the time and choice to select the right type of compressor for the particular part of a track he/she wants it for and then set it up just so.

What it does to an instrument in a  mix then is help prevent 'masking', this is where the envelope of the signal drops in such a way, either because of the player's technique or their instrument or their preferred tonal choices that some other instrument makes it hard to hear when it plays at the same time. Near the end of a mix when two instruments are masking each other I have found that a change of as little as 0.1dB can sometimes make a real difference to the way a pair of instruments sound in a mix.

Back to live then.

If you are trying to use a compressor to help you be heard in a mix you need very very little for it to make a difference.

If you are using compression for a definite effect then you may need bucket loads.

If you like your tone as it is but feel you sometimes 'disappear' in the mix and are constantly turning up, then a transparent compressor, set just right, could be the answer to the fight.

But you need good critical listening skills, you need to do this 'in the mix' unless you have great metering on the pedal to help you out otherwise you probably will put too much compression on the sound in order to hear it happening.

Compression is difficult to master when you are in the safe space of a mix down with no distractions and lots of time to experiment. In order to make it 'easier' to use many pedals have no 'confusing' metering and not all the required parameters to really control the compression. This is a double edged sword, no metering and 'doing it by ear' are nigh on impossible with a transparent compressor unless you are setting it up in situ in the mix. On the other hand a full featured compressor is waaay to complex for an average bassist to get the best out of, and also remember that little detail about setting it right for a particular song? Well you cant with an always on compressor, so you have to set it to help you a little bit all the time, and that's another skill.

Ultra low ratio (1.5 to 1 even), very low threshold, slow-ish attack (50 to 80 ms) and fast release (less than 30ms) giving not more than 3dB total compression on the loudest parts is probably a good target for a general touch of compression type of setting on bass live IME. No you cant really hear or feel it if you are just playing solo (dont be concerned if when playing normally the 3dB light doesnt light up at all, you are still getting some compression if your threshold is set right). In the mix you will be easier to hear, whether you are a loud or quiet band. Not because of tonnes of compression but because your individual note envelopes are changed just a smidge so that the post transient part of the note envelope is a touch louder than before.

Hope that makes some sense, probably not though

 

 

[Osiris]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

I'm pretty keen on the compression part, myself!

Me too.

[Osiris]

@51m0n that's a great post 

15 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

.... if you want to know why a compressor might help you in a live situation when it apparently 'does nothing' or 'kills my dynamics' then feel free to have  a read....

So a deliberately transparent compressor you can't hear working on your signal in isolation, until you are doing way to much with it, and thats about when you feel your dynamics disappearing, because you are doing huge amount of compression in order to hear anything much at all. In a mix way less compression would be 'enough' to change the envelope of your signal to make your instrument be easier to hear, but you aren't in a mix so in order to hear anything at all you put way too much compression on.

For me this is the critical point.

I think some people assume that compression will be an obvious effect in the same way that a drive or delay is. While it can be, for compression to be useful and usable, you will almost always need to use it sparingly. Due to it not always being obvious, I think there is a tendency to dial in a sound that you can obviously hear, which as you rightly say, by that time you have squeezed the life out of your bass sound. With compression less is usually more. 

The analogy I like is to think of it adding salt to a bag of chips (I'm not really sophisticated enough for the spice cliche ). If you buy a Kilo bag of salt and tip it all over your chips they'll be inedible. But just add a pinch and there's an instant agreeable improvement. 

[Cuzzie]

@5im0n thanks for that lovely explanation it makes complete sense to me, I sincerely hope you are ready for more of @Al Krow questions now, or rebuttals, i’m Getting some popcorn

[krispn]

This is why I suggest folk have a listen to some studio engineers and recording/advice on you tube...yeah it can be hit and miss but there are some great sources out there.Then via DAWor an fx processor if you have one play along to tunes with headphones and experiment with settings.

To preface this my singer/guitarist in the pub band is a sound guy..claims to be anyway...we had a terrible feedback from a fiddle (an electric fiddle mind not an acoustic) on a gig and at the half time break I asked him about eq- he hadn’t a clue what he was doing...I asked him if he was using a compressor.....he hadn’t a clue. I mitigated the issue and vowed to learn a bit more about eq. I kinda knew about freqs and mids and a little bit of knowledge on compression and it got us by, found the offensive freq and dialed it out. Since then I’ve been picking up bits and pieces and now he has actually listened to me and allowed me to eq the drums and do a bit more in getting a nice mix for his in ears, using hpf on some channels etc.

The only real way to figure this stuff out is to do it in some capacity and try it live when you can. 

[discreet]

52 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

...that's sounding like a must have, then!  ...clearly a diamond is a bass guy's best friend...

It is, IMHO. But I use it more as a tone shaper or enhancer. If you need transparent, remedial compression that doesn't change your tone, you'd probably be better off with an Aguilar or an Empress.

[krispn]

I have my little frequency chart with me in the gig bag which is very simple but handy in a pinch. It’s not compression related and may have a typo but it’s a general guide. I should have recommended compression ratios on the back for various instruments too now I think about it .

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by krispn

[Cuzzie]

the really important thing about that sheet which is brilliant is how a single plucked note can go through all those Hz ranges, hence harmonics etc.

[krispn]

Yup it’s interesting and clearly shows I have too much time on my hands! Night shift can get boring!

[Cuzzie]

I am a geek too

[krispn]

To explain the top letter is the note and the one below the 5th often a tricky harmonic which can feedback. The numbers are the corresponding freq (approx) for each note. I started the b at low b on bass but you can see the pattern pretty easily if you need to dial out higher freqs for feedback.

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, discreet said:

It is, IMHO. But I use it more as a tone shaper or enhancer. If you need transparent, remedial compression that doesn't change your tone, you'd probably be better off with an Aguilar or an Empress.

+1 to that. I found the Aguilar to be an excellent 'transparent' compressor which provided a more centred sound.

But tbh I'm not really noticing it being gone. But then I sometimes get 'accused' of having a 'girly' approach to bass by some of my fellow BCers (code for they prefer to use a more arthritis inducing playing style) so maybe I'm already pretty even in terms of how I am playing and not needing too much 'remedial' compression and when I want to play with contrasting loudness, I do.  

The only real comments I've ever had on tone from band mates has been them noticing the difference between my Ibby + Nordstrands + new strings (brighter more aggressive) from my Sandberg +  Delanos + older strings (muddier more rounded). And something as simple as changing the location of the bass combo to be further forward has had a MUCH bigger impact on our overall sound in terms of removing any feedback via the mics / eliminating boominess. All the stuff about using an hpf pedal to eliminate boominess was a more complex approach to the same issue (and actually band mates didn't like the hpf at all "why are you removing the low frequencies - we like them?!").

Sometimes doing something quite simple can deliver equal or better results, is my point. You don't always need another piece of £200+ kit. Based on the comments to date I'm defo starting to land on the Lozz and ChrisB side of the fence on this one.

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow best Agent zig zag quote ever, is you don’t always need another bit of Kit!

i do love you Bas

[krispn]

All solid advice. Cab placement can have massive impact on low end but it think mic’s feeding back due to proximity to speakers is a simple fix which doesn’t require and trickery other then turning the buggers away from the mic. Using a HPF can have similar complexities in how we hear or perceive it...it’s similar to how Simon described compression. Removing a portion of the lows which aren’t doing anything ‘useful’ creates some space and tidiness in the subs/lows and by the time we are hearing it work it’s probably too much reduction/cut. Proximity effect on a mic can benefit from a little hpf etc. On our desk live we have hpf going on  to some degree appropriate to the instruments natural voice/range. It’s something I notice more doing recording where you want space for everything and maybe not as noticeable down the dog and biscuit. If those issues of low end mud or inarticulate mids arises it’s good to have an idea of what to do to mitigate or fix them. A compressor may not be the silver bullet in this scenario ?We can agree on that ?

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Al Krow best Agent zig zag quote ever, is you don’t always need another bit of Kit!

i do love you Bas

Need. Want. GAS 

All different things my friend, as we know! (See nice little thread on stuff we're managing to cut)

For example, I hear one of us is thinking about getting a second Cali compressor for themselves (not me bro). Who in the world needs TWO Cali compressors on their board(s)? Surely if the first can't transform you into sounding like a semi-pro bass playing groupie-magnate (which apparently is says on the tin is exactly what it can do), a second one is not going to have any more effect? 

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Al Krow]

12 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

Compression threads have a tendency to get weird like this.

Plenty of reasons to use two compressors. Lots of use for a HPF.

Neither are magic, fix anyone's playing, or require religious zeal for, or against.

Al, I get the impression you don't like using compressors. That's fine. Some of us do- can you find it on your heart to accept that? 

For sure, each to their own. And no shooting individuals and burying them in shallow graves for holding a different opinion etc  

But actually I'm more open minded than you assume: to the extent that I did invest in a very decent 'transparent' comp recently only to have it incessantly slagged off by one of my closest BC buddies as being a complete waste of time / effort after he'd tried it for 10 mins (and he is a bit of compressor guru / evangelist - so at the time I took him at his word and moved the thing on).

But I'm older and wiser and I was thinking of having another stab at 'compression' (I've got another couple of BC buddies who are also compressor guru / evangelist and both use Cali 76Bs) but before I did, I thought I'd get some insights from y'all...and actually it's been bloo*dy useful this far! In particular:

- transparent vs tonally coloured comps and their uses;

- comp being part of the differential magic of valve vs SS amps;

- to what extent do pros / semi pros use comp pedals on their boards (not really had much of an answer to this, apart from John Deacon who apparently does and let's face it is better bassist than anyone on BC and I'm guessing knows a thing or two about how to get a decent studio engineered sound out of his bass too!)

[Cuzzie]

Simple spreadsheet equation

1 Cali - semi pro

2 Cali - pro

Cali to the power of Pi - world class rock star!

you can have my cast off groupies

[51m0n]

32 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Need. Want. GAS 

All different things my friend, as we know! (See nice little thread on stuff we're managing to cut)

For example, I hear one of us is thinking about getting a second Cali compressor for themselves (not me bro). Who in the world needs TWO Cali compressors on their board(s)? Surely if the first can't transform you into sounding like a semi-pro bass playing groupie-magnate (which apparently is says on the tin is exactly what it can do), a second one is not going to have any more effect? 

I'll bite

Reason 1

Setting up a compressor to do certain things is very dependent on the track/player/style/bass.

Say you like a little overall compression on all your tracks, but you also cover Sledgehammer, and for that track you are switching to a fretless Sabre bass and need massive compression to get the right tone.

Do you:-

a) Make the band and punters wait for you to change every setting on your compressor

b) Turn off the normal compressor, and turn on the shiny new second Cali compressor

Reason 2

The Cali is based upon a Urei 1176 FET compressor. This is one of the fastest compressors out there, it was in fact originally designed to be a limiter.

If you have you normal compression set up to miss the transients (very sensible if you dont your bass sound will lose a lot of bite) and squeeze the decay then you might also switch to a more aggressive playing style that creates far too large a transient.

A second Cali76 set up to catch those peaks and handle them will make everything hang together.

Last note on this, if you catch those peaks it will sound like you are generating more compression than you are, because the sound of the limiter catching the threshold will happen before you are smashing your main tone to bits with too much compression

 

Reason 3

You determine you want to split you frequencies and have separate compression for the top and bottom half of your signal like the TE compressor used to.

 - take this as far as you want to go!

 

I can go on (and on) with cool tricks to do with multiple compressors, when mastering I use up to about 6 compressors all set to do slightly different things to a track there are a lot of possibilities out there....

 

[Cuzzie]

@51m0n thank you again, you are my knight in armour.

i would like your post, by The BC compression rules have stated I reached my max like quota.

just to complete what you have eloquently said, one is the Cali76G compresso with a Germanium and the second is a Compact Bass, so 2 different animals....!