Live bands compress bass - since when?!

[51m0n]

No worries

[discreet]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 I found the Aguilar to be an excellent 'transparent' compressor which provided a more centred sound. But tbh I'm not really noticing it being gone.

I don't need a compressor for actual compression duties, either. My playing is very consistent and my dynamic control is good. No special skilz involved though, one does naturally tend towards consistency after forty-odd years of playing bass.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[tauzero]

On 11/12/2017 at 17:50, toneknob said:

Here's Tony Levin's world-class effects board currently accompanying him on tour with world class King Crimson. Analogman Bi-Comp there for all to see

https://reverb.com/news/on-stage-with-king-crimson-the-live-rig-of-the-radical-action-tour

 

 

Oh no! A music stand! I thought he was a world-class bassist...

[discreet]

In that case, I can only conclude that most bass players are unaware of what a comp is for and what it really does - and therefore don't know how to use it properly. And the effect of proper use in any case is likely to be so subtle that it will be less than the difference to be got from using a different bass or a different set of strings.

So in the chaos of your average pub gig it's hardly worth bothering with a comp pedal and therefore you can save yourself a considerable amount of cash by not buying one. So I will do what I have done for decades, rely on professional engineers and producers to do their thing, and save myself a ton of mental grief and anguish simply by not thinking about pedal comps ever again!

It would seem that one would be better off directing one's time and effort into being a better bass player rather than dabbling with forces one does not understand... Thus will the geeks inherit the Earth! These compressor threads are a fecking minefield! I'm out!

Edited December 13, 2017 by discreet

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[discreet]

'Fosters me off'?? What the hell is that??  No apology necessary - in fact this (and other similar threads) have made it very clear to me that I really don't need a compressor pedal. The only one I've found that I like is the Diamond BCP-1 bass compressor, which is less a compressor and more a tone shaper, as any fule kno. But it is a very good tone shaper, even it says 'BASS COMP' on the front.

I bought and tried both the Aguilar and Empress compressors, which aren't cheap, but as said above the effect is very subtle - too subtle for me to keep that much investment in them. So I moved them on. Bass players like bang for their buck. And if there's no obvious 'bang' we need to know what the 'buck' is going on??!! 

I'm really not one for effects in general, so should probably have kept away from all this. The Tech 21 VT Bass I like a lot. The Diamond, of course. The Zoom B1on and the stomp box MS-60B I thought were both very good (and are generally underrated). But all those Filters, Fuzzes, Octavers and Distos..? Nah.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by discreet

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[discreet]

7 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

Ha, Fosters! The profanity filter is obviously an ale drinker!

I think the bloke who put the alternative words in definitely is...

[Skol303]

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

And no shooting individuals and burying them in shallow graves for holding a different opinion etc  

No? Really? Awww... buzzkill.

I agree with the post above: compression threads have a tendency to get weird, which is weird in itself.

Visit a studio engineers’ forum and you’ll find pages and pages of discussion about “which compressor is best for bass?” (ad nauseum). In that arena, bass and compression go together like beer and crisps. But talk to bass players themselves and it’s as though compression is some kind of dark art, a taboo.

I’ve never understood this and just feel that many of you guys are missing out on a great tool that every bass player should understand and have in their ‘toolbox’. It’s really nothing to be afraid of

[Al Krow]

21 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

No? Really? Awww... buzzkill.

I agree with the post above: compression threads have a tendency to get weird, which is weird in itself.

Visit a studio engineers’ forum and you’ll find pages and pages of discussion about “which compressor is best for bass?”   (ad nauseum). In that arena, bass and compression go together like beer and crisps. But talk to bass players themselves and it’s as though compression is some kind of dark art, a taboo.

I’ve never understood this and just feel that many of you guys are missing out on a great tool that every bass player should understand and have in their ‘toolbox’. It’s really nothing to be afraid of

So what have the studio engineers' concluded on then in terms of  'Which compressor is best for bass'? Is it 42?

[discreet]

27 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

Visit a studio engineers’ forum and you’ll find pages and pages of discussion about “which compressor is best for bass?” (ad nauseum). In that arena, bass and compression go together like beer and crisps. But talk to bass players themselves and it’s as though compression is some kind of dark art, a taboo.

I’ve never understood this and just feel that many of you guys are missing out on a great tool that every bass player should understand and have in their ‘toolbox’. It’s really nothing to be afraid of...

As a music producer I routinely use various types of compression on individual tracks and entire mixes without a second thought. 

But live, I'd rather leave it to the engineer - given a big enough gig with a good enough PA. It makes more sense. One guy has control over the whole band. Using your own comp pedal for bass at gigs seems a little unnecessary. IMHO, of course.

Edited December 13, 2017 by discreet

[Cuzzie]

Well I just made any sound mans job easier if I ever need one now that I have a Cali76CB to go with my Cali76G.

its a beast of a pedal and tone heaven

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, discreet said:

... use in any case is likely to be so subtle that it will be less than the difference to be got from using a different bass or a different set of strings.

So in the chaos of your average pub gig it's hardly worth bothering with a comp pedal and therefore you can save yourself a considerable amount of cash by not buying one. 

It would seem that one would be better off directing one's time and effort into being a better bass player ...

+1 Nothing I think any of us can really disagree with there? And I think you put very well one side of the debate: in a typical pub or club setting no one (including your band mates) are really going to give two hoots whether you're using a comp or not (challenge to those of you using comps - play your next gig without it and see if anyone notices?). 

Given that's the typical venue that I'm currently playing, probably no great rush to get a comp for my pedal board. So cheers as I think you've just saved me, at least for the time being, >£300 on a Cali 76B and getting a larger pedal board which I would need to get to put it on!

Which means I can head off with the savings into 2018 to find myself a decent Yammy P-bass 5er, instead...

[discreet]

17 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I think you've just saved me  >£300 on a Cali 76B... ...Which means I can find myself a decent Yammy P-bass 5er, instead...

You're welcome. My 'unnecessary purchase avoidance' fee is a very reasonable 15%... 

[Cuzzie]

In the same vein the average pub drinker punter won’t care if it’s a decent Yammy 5er, or if it’s a markbass combo, or if you have Nordstrand pick ups, or actually if you have any pedal board at all, so we can all save money

[T-Bay]

51 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

In the same vein the average pub drinker punter won’t care if it’s a decent Yammy 5er, or if it’s a markbass combo, or if you have Nordstrand pick ups, or actually if you have any pedal board at all, so we can all save money

As long as it’s a Fender or Gibson around here. If I take my Ibanez or Aria I always get one punter coming up saying I should buy a Fender/ Gibson. When I point out I have both they usually give look which says ‘why is not here then’ and walk away. It’s also amazing how many ex bass plating Trace Elliot owners there are in the average pub crowd.

[Al Krow]

Appreciate you're being lighthearted about the pedal board dear Cuzzie, but believe me you'd be wrong. Filter / synth, dirt and octave pedals almost certainly get noticed! The point about compression pedals is that their effect is generally too subtle to get noticed by Jo Public and most band mates in a live pub scenario (as you will find out when you come to play one). Sound engineers in a recording studio are obviously a different kettle of fish!

And btw band mates certainly do notice a big difference between Ibby / Nordy pups and Sandberg / Delanos both live and in rehearsal, so yes I could have saved money there too - but that is simply because Ibbys provide more bang for your buck than a Sandberg! And bass players rightly seeking to get a decent bang for their buck is another point I agree with discreet on! (Maybe that 15% commission is reasonable after all ) 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Al Krow

[SpondonBassed]

On 12/10/2017 at 18:07, Al Krow said:

Compression and bass. Marmite. Divides opinion. We all know.

But how long have really good professional bass players actually been using compressors for live performance (NOT studio recording where sound engineers will have had their input and say, like nearly forever)? Is it a relatively modern phenomenon that has become more common with the advent of D class amps?

Just how widespread is the use of compression pedals by the bass players, when playing live, whom we each really admire or do they play au naturel unfettered by signal squish in their chain and let the Sound / FOH guys do their thing as required?

As ever, looking forward to getting your views! 

AK

I'm not sure about bass but my guitarist brother told me in the eighties that they were forced to use compression at the Empire ballroom.  I gather that this was not usual but it was necessary because of the sound travelling into multi-screen cinema in the same building complex.

[SpondonBassed]

2 hours ago, T-Bay said:

...It’s also amazing how many ex bass plating Trace Elliot owners there are in the average pub crowd.

You can spot the genuine ex-owners by the stoop.  Plating these amps however does not make them any lighter.

[Dood]

I get the feeling that the thing that 'folk' don't like about Compressors is that in conversations like these it can be seen as 'you use one so you must have a problem with your technique'. My mate Andy used to see all sorts of internet nonsense over his playing because he uses a hair band as a string mute on his guitar. People losing their sh*t over it. Which is odd considering he's had several albums out, toured all over the world and is one of the best online tutors out in Guitar world.. lol Anyway, I digress. It's ok to say "I use one but my technique sucks anyway", but it's not cool for someone else to tell you (or make you feel) that your technique sucks..

 

The innocent compressor divides people unnecessarily. Maybe a bit like those conversations about those who think that real bass players don't use a plectrum... or Jaco only needed.. oh gawd...

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by dood

[Al Krow]

I'm glad you also refer to it as a 'plectrum'  This real bass player certainly uses one, in fact I love his easy to copy style around 3.04. We get a glimpse of his pedal board a 0.28 but too brief for me to discern whether he's using a compressor or not.

 This next one is Miles Mosley's pedal board. Amazing (upright) bass player - I went to see him and his band play at the Jazz cafe in Camden earlier in the year. He's using an MXR comp:

 

[cheddatom]

When I play live, I want to sound as good as I do recorded. When I record, I'll use a VST compressor, and a VST limiter on my bass, so when I play live I use a compressor and a limiter. In the studio I do this for every bassist no matter what their technique is like. No-one's ever complained! 

[Dood]

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'm glad you also refer to it as a 'plectrum'  This real bass player certainly uses one, in fact I love his easy to copy style around 3.04. We get a glimpse of his pedal board a 0.28 but too brief for me to discern whether he's using a compressor or not.

 This next one is Miles Mosley's pedal board. Amazing (upright) bass player - I went to see him and his band play at the Jazz cafe in Camden earlier in the year. He's using an MXR comp:

 

I'm also pleased about his reference to "Up the dusty end", "North of the border" I call it too and often make references and jokes about it in my own videos just.. because! 

Likewise I didn't see what was on the pedal board in terms of anything other than that which was obvious first glimpse. 

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow you have sort of answered yours and my point. Wrapping it all together, if the use of a compressor pedal whatever it is aids in forming your bands mix, sound, levels etc. To provide a homogenous pleasing entity then yes the punters may not notice, as everything is well balanced (there is balance in the force, it is Star Wars time!)

if your sound is unbalanced for whatever reason, then the punter will notice and maybe something is missing be it a compressor, EQ, etc.

your point about filters is correct in that they will get noticed, because that’s what they are there for. If you play Sir Psycho Sexy or Bootsy Collins without an envelope, it will be noticed, as that stuff is based on it. Octave we will disagree partially as that again should in some ways not be noticed, as you are filling gaps where other instruments drop out, or you are after a particular effect, or in your case you want to track lower than a low F# where you told me your octaver does not go, and you are getting into rumble hearing territory and more bass notes you feel rather than hear.

Look at Royal Blood, when they first came out and you just heard it on the radio, not seeing it, did you instantly think, that’s a guy with 2 octave pedals, pitch shifter, distortion, various tuners and cut off switches, and bi ampin or did you think, that’s a good rock sound, sound like a tight guitar and bass? Not noticeable until you look into it.

Agent Zig Zag, your comment was on punters not knowing any difference, but now band members do so it’s a justification of equipment. Not really mate you are hanging goal posts again, but if you have a happy band with a well balanced sound be it Ibby, Yammy, Fender,Gibson, Dingwall etc. Everyone is happy and that is the point.

I as well am not sure why compression divides opinion aside from assuming that if it’s not understood and not used correctly it can adversely affect sound, as can any effect!

and Bas, I think you’ll find I have used these effects live, one being a Source Audio Manta (which I think you have now...)  and hot hand, in a band mix, in a live pub, before you even knew what a filter pedal was, before you were starting a gozillion best of threads and whilst you were still failing to read the manual on your zoom pedal, and before you stared hailing the ‘pick’ having prevsiouly dismissed it for your smooth finger technique.

BTW Bas, which of your new octave/filter/synth pedals across your growing-reducing-growing-reducing-consolidating buy/sell/flip as the wind changes boards have you used in anger in a live pub gig?

Edited December 14, 2017 by Cuzzie