Live bands compress bass - since when?!

[51m0n]

Look I am an advocate of using whatever tools you have to get the best results you can for yourselves and your audience.

No one NEEDS a compressor on their bass.

There, I said it ?

You may find one can help you to either achieve a tonal goal or to sit in the mix more easily.

You may find its all smoke and whistles and too much shag and hassle. 

It's all fine. Really.

Go play, enjoy the heck out of it.

If anyone on herequest ever wants to ask anyone more about compression, ask away. People will answer.

If anyone considers someone a lesser player for using compression I'd respectfully suggest they don't really know why someone might want to. It ain't a magic wand it ain't never fixed crappy technique for me, quite the opposite actually, it makes quiet stinky poo louder so any string noise rings right out ?

Play how you want. Peace...

Edited December 14, 2017 by 51m0n

[Al Krow]

@51m0n that's an excellent summary! Your posts on this thread have been particularly helpful and have certainly taken my (and I suspect a fair number of our fellow BCer's) understanding of compression forward a good deal, cheers mate!

 

[BigRedX]

On 12/14/2017 at 10:24, Al Krow said:

I'm glad you also refer to it as a 'plectrum'  This real bass player certainly uses one, in fact I love his easy to copy style around 3.04. We get a glimpse of his pedal board a 0.28 but too brief for me to discern whether he's using a compressor or not.

But he is using a Wallace Valve amp so there will be compression on his signal whether or not he has a dedicated compressor on his pedal board.

[Dood]

5 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

But he is using a Wallace Valve amp so there will be compression on his signal whether or not he has a dedicated compressor on his pedal board.

and if his plectrum is of a sufficiently light gauge, then the give in it will act as a compressor too.

Maybe if his fingers are really squishy then that might soften the movement of the plectrum too.

or if his thumb is a bit on the weak side..

oh dear I'm going cross-eyed... lol

 

In all seriousness though, something to point out regarding valve amplifiers which appears to be a fairly common misconception. Just because an amp has valves in it, it does not mean that the signal is being compressed. Valves have the capability to compress, but the two are not inextricable.

[51m0n]

On 14/12/2017 at 14:18, Al Krow said:

The most highly regarded fast FET compressor I'm aware of is the Cali 76 CB - agreed? And the hpf and clean blend on this seem to be really nice additional touches. It's not cheap even second hand.

What would be good examples slower LA-2A style tube-opto compressor?

If you were choosing just one of the two types - which would you go for?

Another great opto compressor option is the Joe Meek FloorQ. 

Really good squishy action sounds very fat 😆

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, 51m0n said:

Another great opto compressor option is the Joe Meek FloorQ. 

Really good squishy action sounds very fat 😆

Cheers for that. If I were to push you for a recommendation (as most of us won't probably be getting more than one comp) as to either just a fast FET comp or just an opto comp which one of the two types would you recommend going for and why? 

[krispn]

I’ll bite....

depends on what you want to achieve as with any effect or tool. Onvilabs is a great resource but doesnt have all the answers but a PC-2A is a wonderful simple comp which certainly works on a p bass. Possibly more vintage sounding. A Cali76 CB will do the quicker FET thing and have more control. FEA Labs stuff is highly regarded but difficult to get over here but grinds in the USA could help. Talkbass classifieds and a USA  shipping address would make that easier. I’ve used the PC-2A and the Cali and both are good at different thinks. It’s like asking which is the better distortion rat or muff? They’re different and the application would influence the answer. I know not helpful 😀

[Skol303]

11 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers for that. If I were to push you for a recommendation (as most of us won't probably be getting more than one comp) as to either just a fast FET comp or just an opto comp which one of the two types would you recommend going for and why? 

If just one, then personally I’d plump for a FET compressor. More versatile than a tube-opto overall (especially if it has a variable attack/release).

[51m0n]

I love the fatness of an opto compressor. ....

They're just squidgy and add real grooviness that I clearly can't put into words 😂

Or get a great vca compressor, they are a really good best of both worlds workhorse tool.

[Al Krow]

10 hours ago, 51m0n said:

I love the fatness of an opto compressor. ....

They're just squidgy and add real grooviness that I clearly can't put into words 😂

Or get a great vca compressor, they are a really good best of both worlds workhorse tool.

VCA compressors?

First reaction:- no idea what Simon is on about! So I found this:

https://vintageking.com/blog/2016/03/vca-compressors/

Second reaction: no way is that going to be cheap or easy to use for us more simple minded bass players. 

Third reaction: @Osiris's one knob approach to compression (TC Spectracomp), and life more generally, would definitely then start to have some appeal to a compression newbie like me.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[MoonBassAlpha]

I've just scored a SpectraComp from these very pages and looking forward to trying out all the editing options and all, but even as it is, I can see it could be a really useful tool. Even going through a tiny non-bass amp , it adds a chunkiness to the sound I can see will be appealing in a band setting. Just have to wait for my guitarist's hand to heal before I can try it out in that context.  

[Osiris]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

If you're just starting out, I wouldn't worry about the circuit type. The most important thing is learning the effects of compression and the multiple ways it can be used.

If you're serious about getting to know compression properly, one with the full complement of controls, or at least most of them, is a much better idea than a one-knobber, if you'll pardon the phrase!

Comp isn't as simple as 'more, or 'less' applied to the signal, and that one knob could be affecting the parameters in any number of ways. Having one alongside a fully featured unit could be a helpful learning tool, but by itself could be as likely to put you off than anything.

Think of it like learning a language or piece of software. There's going to be a lot to pick up, a learning curve, and no magic bullet!

The Spectracomp is both the simplest and at the same time probably the most complicated compressor currently available 

There is the one physical knob for simplicity, the function of which can change depending on what Tone Print you are using. You can also create your own Tone Print and assign up to 3 different parameters for the single knob to control so you could set it to do some crazy things control the threshold for the lows, attack time for the highs and volume of the mids all at the same time if you really wanted too! The Tone Print editor app allows you control over something like 50 different parameters and is crazy stuff. I'm still getting to grips with it myself, but there is an infinite amount of control available if you want to whip up your own sound. I usually start with a Tone Print that I like and then fine tune it to my tastes e.g. slight tonal changes by altering the respective frequency band levels and adjusting the amount of dry signal blended back in etc. 

Your language analogy is spot on, in compression terms for single band compression I can hang out with the locals for hours, but with the multi-band stuff I can just about order a couple of beers ask where the toilet is 

[krispn]

I'll chime in that if you can experiment on a DAW where there may be instrument specific presets and lots of graphs and visuals to aide your ears as to what is happening. It can be fun mucking about with tacks, looping a phrase and applying different comp etc.

[Al Krow]

Just a reminder that the expert-view key conclusions from this earlier (actually rather good) thread, (just for ease of reference for when the mods do compress all compressor threads into one), is that:

On 14/12/2017 at 21:47, 51m0n said:

1. No one NEEDS a compressor on their bass.

2. If anyone considers someone a lesser player for using compression I'd respectfully suggest they don't really know why someone might want to. It ain't a magic wand it ain't never fixed crappy technique for me, quite the opposite actually, it makes quiet stinky poo louder so any string noise rings right out?

3. Play how you want. Peace...

But it was also from a happier by-gone era (2017) when folk were seemingly more open to free speech and didn't seek to compress repress stop further discussion on this hallowed and oft not well understood subject.

On 14/12/2017 at 21:47, 51m0n said:

If anyone on herequest ever wants to ask anyone more about compression, ask away. People will answer.

Well I've got a comp on my board now. So I'm alright Jack. It has more knobs than a Spectracomp, more even than a MXR M87, so I'd better get my head around what attack/ release/ threshold/ ratio do. But in any event my stinky poo is simply going to be heard louder.

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Al Krow

[Skol303]

 

[Al Krow]

Dredging up an old thread simply 'cos I've got a Q that's bugging me!

Assuming that compression is a valuable additional tool to improving sound, then:

Why don't bass manufacturers incorporate a compressor into their on-board preamps? If it noticeably improves sound then you would have thought that some bright spark somewhere would have had the gumption to include - and at the very least to give them a bit of a marketing edge?

I get that budget bass manufacturers won't want to bother, but there are plenty of basses in the £750k+ price range and a comp circuit shouldn't cost more than £25 to add I would have thought?

[Dood]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Dredging up an old thread simply 'cos I've got a Q that's bugging me!

Assuming that compression is a valuable additional tool to improving sound, then:

Why don't bass manufacturers incorporate a compressor into their on-board preamps? If it noticeably improves sound then you would have thought that some bright spark somewhere would have had the gumption to include - and at the very least to give them a bit of a marketing edge?

I get that budget bass manufacturers won't want to bother, but there are plenty of basses in the £750k+ price range and a comp circuit shouldn't cost more than £25 to add I would have thought?

Hmm! Well, it's funny as it's something that crossed my mind many times over the years, but I never actually got round to doing anything about it (you know I tinker with bass gear!) 

I guess cost is one thing but maybe there power consumption overhead could be a factor? Nah, actually I don't really buy that. OpAmps are capable of low power consumption, so a simple circuit could be included.

That said, I use "non-X" versions of EMG's active pickups. Whatever is going on with them, they definitely bring lower volume playing up in signal - and, they have a really high output which means you can play much more lightly for the same "kick". So, there's a form of "levelling" going on there I suppose. 

[krispn]

It might get a bit confusing what with all the controls. One could be looking at at least 4 or 5 stacked pots, maybe push/pull pots too and switches especially if combined with an active circuit. I know some folk can struggle getting to grips with the most basic of active/passive set ups and this would be quite daunting for some! 

 It could all get very confusing and as identified above no one really needs a compressor.  The other question is do you think you’d have gravitated towards an instrument with these features? I know of one brand of on board eq which features a drive which seems like an easier to execute/more useful feature for the masses but that’s for another thread!

Edited January 6, 2020 by krispn

[Cato]

I don't know if any of them ever featured a compressor but there have been various basses and guitars with various built in FX produced over the years, from the Gibson RD Artist to the recent Ibanez SRKP4 with it's built in Kaoss pad.

None of them has ever really set the world alight.

Edit:  Just checked and amongst other effects the latest version of the Kaoss pad does indeed feature a compressor, still not sure if the Ibanez had one though.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Cato

[BigRedX]

30 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Dredging up an old thread simply 'cos I've got a Q that's bugging me!

Assuming that compression is a valuable additional tool to improving sound, then:

Why don't bass manufacturers incorporate a compressor into their on-board preamps? If it noticeably improves sound then you would have thought that some bright spark somewhere would have had the gumption to include - and at the very least to give them a bit of a marketing edge?

I get that budget bass manufacturers won't want to bother, but there are plenty of basses in the £750k+ price range and a comp circuit shouldn't cost more than £25 to add I would have thought?

No. Please no more pointless electronics being shoe-horned into the control cavities of our instruments. Especially when it almost always going to be duplicated somewhere else in the signal chain.

IMO all I want on my bass is a master volume control that works smoothly, and for basses with more than one pickup that don't have an individual output for each pickup individual volume controls/balance controls for the pickups. If you are going to have on-board EQ then it needs to be individual EQ for each pickup, and not a master one which is going to be duplicated elsewhere in the signal path.

[krispn]

I should add that when discussing the Mo West designed Alien Audio on board pre and it’s standalone Tidal Wave pedal version of the EQ Chopper does mention that he thinks there’s compression going on within the circuit. I’ve not seen nor could I easily read a schematic but it might be worth a look if you were seeking a pre which had built in comp.

[jacko]

56 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Why don't bass manufacturers incorporate a compressor into their on-board preamps? 

You'll end up with something like this...

 

[krispn]

Let’s face it compression live is like wearing a belt with your trousers. Generally most folks don’t need a belt, trousers on their own work just fine but some of us like to feel everthing just tightened up a little, be it a security thing or you just feel better in a belt. Will anyone know you’re wearing one or will anyone really care. That’s unlikely!

Now if the soundman is the tailor he’s always gonna recommend a belt. “Yes yes sir you might not feel the need but trust me sir It’ll tie the whole look together!”

Now some tailors might suggest braces but generally they’re overkill unless you want the effect too. 

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Assuming that compression is a valuable additional tool to improving sound, then:

Why don't bass manufacturers incorporate a compressor into their on-board preamps?

There you go again. Making assumptions!