Newbie question about Speakon cables

[chris_b]

Mate, bands spent decades touring the world with 300 watt SVT's running 810 cabs connected with 1/4" jacks.

Speakons might be the better option of the two but when speakons were invented it didn't instantly make 1/4" jacks bad or dangerous to use.

For your application and many other bass players 1/4" jacks are just as good.

[Woodinblack]

Although a jack isn't an ideal socket, TBH, the only real problem I see with Jacks is that people use guitar leads to wire them up. It is handy to have another connector that is clearly for a different purpose.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, XoSo said:

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons though I was reading through the quick start guide that came with  my Ampeg PF-500 and here's a curious thing for you. The Ampeg has both a speakon and a quarter jack input on it. In the hook up diagrams they recommend the standard set up should be speakon to speakon and also daisy-chaining using speakon as well. But they also show the possibility of a parallel setup with speakon to speakon connecting the first cab and quarter jack to quarter jack connecting the second cab.

The only logical reason for doing that is if the cab being daisy chained off doesn't have dual speakons but does have one speakon and one 1/4", or if the second cab only has 1/4" and the first has both. But technically speaking you should run cables to the head from both cabs. With the PF500 one would have to be 1/4". Ampeg's jack choice is odd, as there are speakon/1/4" combination jacks. They should have used two of those rather than one speakon and one quarter inch. 

[bazzbass]

20 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I have, though that's not what the thread is about. The issue in this case is using 1/4" phone plugs for speakers. That choice was made by Leo Fender in the 1950s, when 50 watts was a large amp, SS didn't exist, and there was no such thing as a connector specifically designed for the job. The deficiencies of 1/4" connections for speakers are well documented. If you're attitude is 'they've always worked for me' consider the man who jumped off a fifty story building who was heard to say as he passed by open windows on the way down "So far so good".

if you had read my reply, I stated that I use proper speaker cables now. some are thinner than instrument cables so I doubt they are any better

[Woodinblack]

Thin speaker cables are far better. Instrument cables are fatter cables because of the insulation and shielding for noise, all of which are irrelevant for speakers, the conductors in and instrument cable are very fine for flexibility and not designed to take any power. Speaker cables are just a lot of copper and a very small amount of insulation 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On average even the lightest speaker cables have 16 gauge conductors, whereas instrument cables tend to run around 24 gauge or  lighter.

[Chienmortbb]

And higher numbers in cable means smaller. As I said earlier but clearly no one read it. Many 1/4” or 6.35 jack sockets and plugs are rated at 0.5 Amps so not enough for even small powers. In the old days there are few Jack manufacturers such as Switchcraft,  Neutrik and Cliff. All those brands have high current products but the manufacturer can only specify the amplifier connector. We can use any old far eastern crap and if you plug the cable into the amp first and then short the tip to the sleeve by accident you could fry your amp. 

Neutrik have a budget range Rean that do high power plugs that will take big cables and they do get around the capacity problem  and the current/power problem but not the accidental shorting.

 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

24 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

 but not the accidental shorting.

That's why I mentioned there was no SS when 1/4" were adopted. Tubes aren't bother by shorting the output. With the introduction of the first direct coupled SS amp whoever did so should have found a better connector, especially as early SS amps had no protection circuits. Many an output transistor and power supply died that way. Many more mics, effects, extension amps and even pickups died from being plugged into the speaker outputs. Where current is concerned Ampeg made an effort with the early SVTs, using five pin XLR connectors, but gave in to customer backlash when they wanted to use their SVT heads and cabs with different cabs and heads.

[Kevsy71]

Hmm - should I be concerned about my all-tube Ampeg V4B reissue having 1/4" out to Speakon In on my cab? 

[Dan Dare]

38 minutes ago, Kevsy71 said:

Hmm - should I be concerned about my all-tube Ampeg V4B reissue having 1/4" out to Speakon In on my cab? 

Not as long as you ensure the speaker jack is properly plugged in before powering it up and don't disconnect it before powering down.

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

That's why I mentioned there was no SS when 1/4" were adopted. Tubes aren't bother by shorting the output.

Is that really the case, Bill? I always thought one had to be extra careful not to short the output on a tube amp or run it without a load.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

SS amps hate very low impedance loads or shorted outputs, tubes hate very high impedance loads or no load. The one saving grace of a 1/4" output with tubes is that you can use a switching jack to short the output transformer secondary to prevent damage if there's no speaker plugged in to the amp. Fender has used that arrangement since the 50s. The Fender switch is on the Speaker jack, not the Extension Speaker jack, so if you plug into the extension rather than the speaker jack the switch remains closed and you get no output. I doubt there's a Fender owner who ever lived that didn't find that out the hard way, even to the point of thinking the amp was blown. Tubes are also almost immune to too low an impedance. Back when I didn't know any better I ran Fenders into 1 ohm loads all the time with no ill effect. 

[chris_b]

4 hours ago, Kevsy71 said:

Hmm - should I be concerned about my all-tube Ampeg V4B reissue having 1/4" out to Speakon In on my cab? 

If Ampeg are happy why not you?

[Kevsy71]

19 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If Ampeg are happy why not you?

Because if a Speakon is fit for purpose, but 1/4" less so, then it makes me think the 1/4" is there for cost savings (the pricier SVT VR has Speakon out). But I'm happy if (as Dan Dare says above) I just need to make sure the connection is secure and won't get knocked out mid-gig.

[chris_b]

3 minutes ago, Kevsy71 said:

Because if a Speakon is fit for purpose, but 1/4" less so, then it makes me think the 1/4" is there for cost savings (the pricier SVT VR has Speakon out). But I'm happy if (as Dan Dare says above) I just need to make sure the connection is secure and won't get knocked out mid-gig.

Why would that happen? Does anyone rummage around behind your cab during the set? If that's the case get the speakons!

I spent some 30 years touring and gigging with 1/4" plugs and never had a problem. I never saw anyone else have a problem in that time, either. That's why I don't accept that these things are inherently not fit for purpose. Don't use the wrong leads, and don't unplug the amp during the set and you won't have a problem. Do any of those things and it's not the plugs fault!!

These days the bigger Ampeg amps do have speakons. They also still provide 1/4" sockets and their owner's manuals recommend using the speakons at "high output power levels". Why they still provide 1/4" sockets I don't know but for those guys to provide them, I guess they are expecting us to use them, and without breaking the gear when we do!

[Kevsy71]

Indeed that makes sense - thanks Chris!

[Dan Dare]

10 hours ago, chris_b said:

These days the bigger Ampeg amps do have speakons. They also still provide 1/4" sockets and their owner's manuals recommend using the speakons at "high output power levels". Why they still provide 1/4" sockets I don't know but for those guys to provide them, I guess they are expecting us to use them, and without breaking the gear when we do!

It would make sense from Ampeg's point of view not to limit their sales to those who have/use Speakons. Many still use 1/4" jacks.

[BigRedX]

I suspect there is also an element of maintaining the "vintage vibe" behind Ampeg's continued use of jacks instead of Speakons. They would probably also still be using Bulgin mains connectors if they thought they could get away with it ;-)

Edited December 20, 2017 by BigRedX
Stupid auto-correct

[Happy Jack]

On 12/18/2017 at 12:45, stevie said:

It's a logical fallacy that something must work in the future if it worked in the past.

Fascinating. Who was it who made the claim that you are refuting?

As far as I can make out, several people have suggested that a connecting cable that worked some years ago will still work today. I'm struggling to see that as a logical fallacy, but I'm all ears - do tell!

[stevie]

Allow me to join the dots for you, Jack.

Is that all right for you?

To your next point, I'll copy and past a bit from Wikipedia to save time, if you don't mind.

"Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem) is an argument in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it is correlated with some past or present tradition. The appeal takes the form of "this is right because we've always done it this way".

An appeal to tradition essentially makes two assumptions that are not necessarily true:
1. The old way of thinking was proven correct when introduced, i.e. since the old way of thinking was prevalent, it was necessarily correct. In reality, this may be false — the tradition might be entirely based on incorrect grounds.

2. The past justifications for the tradition are still valid at present. In reality, the circumstances may have changed; this assumption may also therefore be untrue."

So there ya go, Jack. Happy, Jack? Just for fun, you might like to look up Logical Fallacies on the internet and count how many there are in this thread. There is one particular claim on here that manages to combine two fallacies in one sentence. Your mission, if you decide to accept it, is to discover who said it. Good luck!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

6 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

As far as I can make out, several people have suggested that a connecting cable that worked some years ago will still work today.

That it will, and it will work as well as it ever has since its invention circa 1878. The issue is that for the last thirty years there has been a better option. If you're content with what you have, use it. If not, welcome to the 21st century.

Quote

I suspect there is also an element of maintaining the "vintage vibe" behind Ampeg's continued use of jacks instead of Speakons.

The only 'vibe' is to continue making sales. They don't want potential buyers to go elsewhere for the lack of having 1/4" inch jacks. They'd still offer banana jacks too if they thought that they could make more sales, and there wasn't the slight inconvenience of their having been banned in Europe.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[fleabag]

Ah, the old ' vintage ' vibe.  Sucked in, re-hashed , marketed , sold.  Capitalism at its finest 

 

[casapete]

And there was me innocently thinking Ampeg may have being trying to be thoughtful by putting a speakon and a jack speaker

output on their amps to cater for people who are still using older cabinets because they can't afford newer versions.....

[fleabag]

No companies that big do things to be kind.  Its sales , sales, sales.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, casapete said:

And there was me innocently thinking Ampeg may have being trying to be thoughtful

There's no such thing as altruism in business. Offering amps and cabs that will still work with older gear is a business decision. It's not necessarily a bad decision, but if regulatory agencies were paying attention they wouldn't be allowed to put them in amps or cabs that their current rating isn't suitable for. They're not paying attention because it's a very small industry in the grand scheme of things.