Duncan Designed vs Seymour Duncan?

[dasitor]

Hello! I recently bought a Squier VM Jazz V from someone who had already changed the pots and cabling to a higher standard, but left the Duncan Designed pickups in. I have been playing the bass for the last few days and can't get over the feeling that the low B is not great sounding and the general tone is mid-frequency overloaded. Also, there is quite a bit of noise (that may be due in part to an amateurish soldering job, I don't know).

As it happens, a few years ago I got a set of Seymour Duncan SJ5-3. I have never used them and now I am feeling tempted to install them in this bass. But I am not sure if it will be worth the effort. Are they the same type of pickups? Is it any kind of improvement? Or should I look for another set of pickups?

Thanks!

[chris_b]

I believe Duncan Designed are made under licence (probably in the Far East) to a lower price point and SD's are made by the "real" SD guys in the US to a different and higher price point. There ought to be a discernible difference with the SD's having the "better" sound or else SD's business model isn't up to scratch.

If you have the pickups sitting around then I'd be using them. It's a reversible mod so if you invest the time you probably gain a much better sounding bass. If not put it all back and sell the pickups.

[dasitor]

Thanks! I am almost convinced now to spend some time on it during the weekend. The thing is that I did an online search on the issue and most people seems to be satisfied with the Duncan Designed ones, even comparing them to the "real" SDs... I thought that maybe it was just a matter of personal taste and that I should try a different type of pickup. But you are right: I will just do it and hear for myself.

[Andyjr1515]

In absolute terms with nothing to compare to, the Duncan-designed are generally OK.  But side by side there will be no comparison. I'm sure it will be worth your time.

[dasitor]

OK. I will report back when it is done. Thanks!

[stevie]

I'm familiar with Duncan pickups but not with the Duncan-designed versions. However, I would posit that if the Duncan-designed really are inferior to the Santa Barbara equivalent, then either Seymour deliberately designed an inferior product to stick his name on, or the Chinese (or Taiwanese) are not technologically advanced enough to produce a pickup as good as the US versions.

I really think the marketing department had a hand in this. A simple test would reveal all. Has anyone actually done a proper comparison of the two?

Edited December 15, 2017 by stevie

[steve-bbb]

not tried the originals but the 'designed' version i had a pair that were the original factory fitted in a vmJ - sounded like a bag of marshmallows wrapped up in cotton wool - all fluff and boomy bass and very little definition maybe i just had a dud pair  - took them out and replaced them wouldnt entertain using them again 

[timhiggins]

I have had 2 vmj's in the past and both were nice sounding ,especially the natural one with maple body,

i had read there would be a big improvement by replacing the duncan designed with u.s. seymour duncans there wasnt ...

i used the vintage sjb 1's as i wanted more of a classic fender sound but most people couldnt tell the difference... i also replaced the electrics with all fender original and this also had next to no audible effect

my conclusion was that they are very good as they come and i would leave as is unless your after a bigger output in which case the quarter pounders would give you that, but there is always a sacrifice made with that classic jazz bass tone i.m.o.  

[hubrad]

15 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

In absolute terms with nothing to compare to, the Duncan-designed are generally OK.  But side by side there will be no comparison. I'm sure it will be worth your time.

+1

I've done alot of tweaking over the decades, and the USA pickups are way better. So much more clarity. 

I tried several instruments while working in a shop, which were really good fitted with DD, but it was like the brand didn't dare fit the better pups and put the price up a sizeable chunk.

I'm in the 'go for it' camp.

[stevie]

There is so much marketing bull surrounding replacement pickups that it's hard to tell what's true and what isn't. A couple of years ago, there was a link on here to a small bass manufacturer's website where they demonstrated around 10 different P-bass pickups on the same bass. Even though the price differences were great, the differences in sound were marginal. It was basically impossible to tell the cheapest Chinese copy from the most expensive hand-wound-by-dwarfs-and-aged-in-whiskey-in-California models. I suppose it's hardly surprising when you consider that this is fairly primitive technology that is very easy to copy.

So I'm not surprised that there is disagreement on this topic (expectation bias and all that). On the other hand, I have certainly heard some pickups that provided an overall "more desirable" sound than stock models and I know the differences were not a product of my imagination.

I'm currently playing an Ibanez SR500 with Asian-built Bartolini's. I wouldn't mind upgrading the pickups if I could be confident that I would actually get an improvement, but the views on the internet about upgrading are as inconsistent as the those in this thread about the Duncans. It's very frustrating.

I would also mention that I've heard replacement pickups that were worse than the originals, and that generally includes most so-called "hot", overwound pickups.

Edited December 18, 2017 by stevie

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, stevie said:

There is so much marketing bull surrounding replacement pickups that it's hard to tell what's true and what isn't. A couple of years ago, there was a link on here to a small bass manufacturer's website where they demonstrated around 10 different P-bass pickups on the same bass. Even though the price differences were great, the differences in sound were marginal. It was basically impossible to tell the cheapest Chinese copy from the most expensive hand-wound-by-dwarfs-and-aged-in-whiskey-in-California models. I suppose it's hardly surprising when you consider that this is fairly primitive technology that is very easy to copy.

So I'm not surprised that there is disagreement on this topic (expectation bias and all that). On the other hand, I have certainly heard some pickups that provided an overall "more desirable" sound than stock models and I know the differences were not a product of my imagination.

I'm currently playing an Ibanez SR500 with Asian-built Bartolini's. I wouldn't mind upgrading the pickups if I could be confident that I would actually get an improvement, but the views on the internet about upgrading are as inconsistent as the those in this thread about the Duncans. It's very frustrating.

I would also mention that I've heard replacement pickups that were worse than the originals, and that generally includes most so-called "hot", overwound pickups.

A lot of sense in this, although it wouldn't make much sense for SD and similar companies to design an equivalent (or even better) sounding cheaper pickup to be made in the Far East. Nobody would buy the originals if they did.

I don't generally like hot/overwound p/us either. With adjustable input gain on amps, it doesn't really matter anyway as you can compensate for variations in pickup signal strength.

[Lozz196]

I think I read somewhere that the pots on Squiers are 500s rather than 250s? If so swapping to 250s would darken the sound a fair bit.

[Dan Dare]

11 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I think I read somewhere that the pots on Squiers are 500s rather than 250s? If so swapping to 250s would darken the sound a fair bit.

I'd be surprised if that was the case. The usual rule is 250k for single coil, 500k for humbuckers. As Squier are made by Fender (so follow original design specs) and there is no cost advantage either way, I don't think they'd do that.

[Lozz196]

Yeah, it was something that I`m sure I read, maybe on here. Agree, doesn`t make sense, so maybe it was someone bought a bass that had already been modded that way. The brain-power isn`t what it used to be so can`t remember exactly, but may be worth the OP checking just in case.

 

And just noticed in the original post that the pots have been changed, so I`d def check it out.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Lozz196

[stevie]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

A lot of sense in this, although it wouldn't make much sense for SD and similar companies to design an equivalent (or even better) sounding cheaper pickup to be made in the Far East. Nobody would buy the originals if they did.

 

It's standard practice in the world of marketing. Think supermarket "own brands". The problem, as you point out, is that the supplier then has to convince the consumer that they should pay more for the "brand name" product, which in many cases is exactly the same. However, the "Duncan Designed" spinoff brand allows the manufacturer to grab himself a piece of the much bigger OEM market, albeit at a lower margin, without diluting the image of his premium brand.

[Funkfingers]

Duncan Designed pickups are manufactured in Korea. Their specifications tend to be loosely based on the American products but only loosely. For example, the long/Bridge four string Jazz Bass pickup yields a higher output than the SJB-1B, giving it a hint of that Jaco fartiness.

In my opinion, the real problem with the Squier VM Jazz Bass V is not the pickups, it is the materials and the scale length. That low B string is never going to sound good. The DuncDes pickups should be okay if you were to tune to C# or D. Better still, go EADGC.

[discreet]

There's nothing wrong with Duncan Designed pickups. If you have 'better' pickups it's definitely worth trying them, but record before and after to make sure it's not 'confirmation bias'.

I'd change the strings first. It's easy and likely to make a huge difference.

 

Edit: I also had a Squier VM Jazz V for a while and the 'B'-string wasn't all that great. Having said that bear in mind I don't get on with 5-stringers anyway, the 'B' string always seems like it's from a different planet, but that's probably a mental abberation on my part... I did some recording with it though and it sounded fine.

Edited December 18, 2017 by discreet

[mart3442]

I've used Seymour Duncans for years, before the Basslines rebranding, and before they were building Antiquities. In terms of what I wanted from a pickup, I've always found them to be a significant upgrade over stock, punchier, tighter tone with better defined low end and more clarity throughout.
What I want isn't going to be what the next player wants, but its a no brainer: You have the pickups to hand, put them in and see what you think... Its in the ears of the player at the end of the day.

Edited December 19, 2017 by mart3442

[Dan Dare]

54 minutes ago, discreet said:

There's nothing wrong with Duncan Designed pickups. If you have 'better' pickups it's definitely worth trying them, but record before and after to make sure it's not 'confirmation bias'.

I'd change the strings first. It's easy and likely to make a huge difference.

 

Edit: I also had a Squier VM Jazz V for a while and the 'B'-string wasn't all that great. Having said that bear in mind I don't get on with 5-stringers anyway, the 'B' string always seems like it's from a different planet, but that's probably a mental abberation on my part... I did some recording with it though and it sounded fine.

I've found few if any inexpensive 5 string basses that have a good low B string. The only one I did was a Lakland Skyline, which although "budget" in Lakland terms, was hardly cheap. It also had a 35" scale length, which accounted for much of the difference, I think.

[dasitor]

Hello. Christmas shopping and all that has taken most of my time, sorry. The good news is that, since I did not take out the DD, I have been able to record a few sounds with them, which I did not do last weekend. On the other hand, the SD neck pickup has a different screw placement, so I will be installing just the bridge pickup for the test.

Regarding Squier pots, I have had three Squier Stratocasters (all pre-2000) and they all had 500k pots, while my Fender MIM (1998) came with 250k pots. I had no idea of which pots they use in basses. The one I have now has CTS 250k pots.

[Funkfingers]

Passive Fender bass guitars normally come with 250kOhm pots. The ones in Squier VM series instruments are not of especially good quality. Upgrading to CTS pots may require the holes in the control plate to be enlarged.

[dasitor]

Well, I have just installed the SD bridge pickup. The specific pickup is a SD SJ5b 67/70. The one replaced comes from an Indonesian Squier ICS11xxxxxx. Edit: I have just checked and on the back of the DD PU it says: "JB105B BRIDGE 1103". It is covered in black foam, that is why I did not see it first.

Yes, there is a difference. My first impression is that the SD has more bass and more attack. I recorded a few sounds and then did a frequency analysis (Audacity) on both the SD and the DD recordings. Not very scientific, but in the graph you can see clearly that the SD has louder harmonics, while the DD has a skinny spectrum. Interestingly (i.e. I do not know what it means) in both pickups there is a solitary peak around 13KHz, but the SD's one is 10 dB louder than the DD's. Accepting that this is not an artifact, I would say that it explains the attack part of my perception.

On the other hand, I got more or less used to the DD sound, and I now understand why people like it. The recorded sound is quite usable, though I did not like it so much when played through my home amp (Taurus combo).

Now I have to find the courage to install the neck PU... I think I will get a new pickguard, not wanting to modify the one I got with the bass...

Thanks for your comments! And enjoy your holidays!

Edited December 22, 2017 by dasitor
More accurate info