Performing Rights Royalties

[PaulWarning]

I'm in the process of submitting our gigs for performing rights, how accurate does the set list have to be? obviously I'd sooner submit our own songs but we do covers as well, does it make any difference to the payment which songs you do?

[DangerDan]

They work it out based on the total lengths of the songs played. 

If you aren't't the composer of the song you get a different cut of the royalty (I'm hazy on this as I've only ever claimed for originals.

[BigRedX]

Yes it does.

The standard Pubs and Clubs royalties are based on a single payment of £6.00 per gig which is distributed between the number of songs played by all the bands playing on a particular night.

Unless the on-line form has changed since I last had to complete one, they ask for a list of all the songs that you have played (both originals and covers) and also the names of any other bands that played on the same night.

Of course it depends on all the bands submitting a set list, and IME if a band doesn't submit a set list then they don't get included in the payout. In the past The Terrortones have played gigs with 2-4 other bands on the bill, but when we've looked at our subsequent royalty statements it is obvious that we've received all of the £6.00 payment for some gigs even when there were other bands on the bill and we have included them in the gig details.

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, DangerDan said:

They work it out based on the total lengths of the songs played. 

If you aren't't the composer of the song you get a different cut of the royalty (I'm hazy on this as I've only ever claimed for originals.

From analysis of my PRS statements, song length isn't important when it comes to Pubs and Clubs gigs, just the number of songs played. Because it's a live performance there is no way of knowing if the version of the song is going to be the same as the recorded one with regards length and therefore it isn't taken into consideration. 

PRS payments are for composers only. If you are not one of the song writers you won't get any PRS royalties.

[DangerDan]

Ahh am i confusing things? I've only ever claimed as a composer, getting paid for originals. I thought they requested the song lengths so that they could pay pro rata as to how long the performance was  (calculated by the sum of the song lengths registered and played).

[DangerDan]

Otherwise you could play a grindcore set of 20 1 minute songs and get paid more than the other bands.

Also, i was never asked to submit other band details whenever I've claimed, just my own bands setlist. 

I thought the £6 figure was more just a guideline as to how much a band would get paid for a gig in a small venue, rather than a hard and fast pot for all bands playing a particular nighy

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, DangerDan said:

Ahh am i confusing things? I've only ever claimed as a composer, getting paid for originals. I thought they requested the song lengths so that they could pay pro rata as to how long the performance was  (calculated by the sum of the song lengths registered and played).

Song lengths are only important when it comes to performance royalties for the playing of recorded music (usually on broadcast radio or TV) where the length of the performance is a known quantity.

Yes the PRS ask you for the length of a song when you register it with them, but you don't need to fill it it, and it can only be accurate for a particular recorded performance. They don't ask for specific song lengths when you supply a set list for a gig. Therefore they don't know where you have added another couple of minutes to a song for extended solos or repeats of the final chorus or conversely have removed a minute or so by trimming off the atmospheric recorded intro that doesn't work at a gig. 

From looking at The Terrortones royalty statements, it is obvious that we have been paid by number of songs as all the songs played at a particular gig have attracted the same amount of Royalties, irrespective of the length we have submitted for the recorded versions.

 

[BigRedX]

12 minutes ago, DangerDan said:

Otherwise you could play a grindcore set of 20 1 minute songs and get paid more than the other bands.

Also, i was never asked to submit other band details whenever I've claimed, just my own bands setlist. 

I thought the £6 figure was more just a guideline as to how much a band would get paid for a gig in a small venue, rather than a hard and fast pot for all bands playing a particular nighy

It depends on the gig. There is a specific category for Pubs & Clubs which is a fixed rate of £6 a gig divided up between all the songs played. And yes you could potentially get more money than the other bands playing that night by doing lots of short songs, but IME bands at the Pub & Clubs gig level rarely bother with submitting set lists to the PRS, so usually the full £6 goes to the one band that does and is evenly distributed between all the songs in the submitted list.

You are supposed to fill in the details of other bands on the bill in the section where you put in the venue details but it isn't a compulsory field to complete.

There is a completely separate rate for "Concert Venues and Festivals" which requires filling in an XLS spread sheet and this might take timings (if known) into consideration. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by BigRedX

[PaulWarning]

where do you get your statements from BRX? I've tried to find them online but can only find the total figure paid to me,.

So when we play a pub gig and we're the only ones on we'll get £6 regardless of how many and what songs (originals or covers) we put down on the set list?

[lowdown]

If you opted for paperless quarterly statements, you should have received those a couple of days ago. Payments went into bank accounts today. 

Well mine did. 

[PaulWarning]

2 minutes ago, lowdown said:

If you opted for paperless quarterly statements, you should have received those a couple of days ago. Payments went into bank accounts today. 

Well mine did. 

got the payment but can't find a breakdown of what it's for

[lowdown]

1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

got the payment but can't find a breakdown of what it's for

You should receive quarterly statements through the post, or a PDF attachment by Email for payments made.

Like I said above, these should have been received a couple of days ago.

 

d

 

 

[PaulWarning]

never had one of those, I've emailed them

[mike257]

On 15/12/2017 at 16:05, PaulWarning said:

So when we play a pub gig and we're the only ones on we'll get £6 regardless of how many and what songs (originals or covers) we put down on the set list?

You don't get a penny for playing covers. If you're a registered PRS member you'll get paid if you're playing originals, so if that's the case, yes, you'll get £6.

[PaulWarning]

8 hours ago, mike257 said:

You don't get a penny for playing covers. If you're a registered PRS member you'll get paid if you're playing originals, so if that's the case, yes, you'll get £6.

 does it matter how many? we usually do a mixture of covers and originals

[BigRedX]

If you are the only band playing, the £6.00 is divided between the songs submitted in your set list. If you play 12 songs the royalty will be 50p per song. If those 12 songs are made up of 8 originals and 4 covers, you will get 8 x 50p = £4.00. The other £2.00 will got to the writers of the cover versions you played. Also that £4.00 will be divided between all the song writers at 50p per song. If you are a 4-piece band and all your songs are credited equally to all 4 members, then you’ll get £1.00 each. Obviously if the songwriting credits are different for each song then it gets much more complicated. Also if you have a publisher they will also get a cut of your performance royalties dependent on what your deal with them is. I hope that all makes sense!

[PaulWarning]

37 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

If you are the only band playing, the £6.00 is divided between the songs submitted in your set list. If you play 12 songs the royalty will be 50p per song. If those 12 songs are made up of 8 originals and 4 covers, you will get 8 x 50p = £4.00. The other £2.00 will got to the writers of the cover versions you played. Also that £4.00 will be divided between all the song writers at 50p per song. If you are a 4-piece band and all your songs are credited equally to all 4 members, then you’ll get £1.00 each. Obviously if the songwriting credits are different for each song then it gets much more complicated. Also if you have a publisher they will also get a cut of your performance royalties dependent on what your deal with them is. I hope that all makes sense!

Thanks for the reply, so you're better off just submitting your own songs, in other words if you're doing a mostly cover version gig there's little point in claiming the royalty, 

[cetera]

You should always list ALL songs, cover or not. After all, the writer of the song you covered is entitled to their share. I'm sure you'd appreciate someone listing your songs should they cover them

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, cetera said:

You should always list ALL songs, cover or not. After all, the writer of the song you covered is entitled to their share. I'm sure you'd appreciate someone listing your songs should they cover them

This. 

I'm sure that quite a few of the writers of the cover versions you do are not multi-millionaire superstars, while the few pence that your cover is going to earn them isn't much on its own it all adds up. After all if your band is earning money out of playing other people's songs isn't it only fair that you should report this - especially since the money they get won't be coming out of your pockets?

[PaulWarning]

13 minutes ago, cetera said:

You should always list ALL songs, cover or not. After all, the writer of the song you covered is entitled to their share. I'm sure you'd appreciate someone listing your songs should they cover them

 

7 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

This. 

I'm sure that quite a few of the writers of the cover versions you do are not multi-millionaire superstars, while the few pence that your cover is going to earn them isn't much on its own it all adds up. After all if your band is earning money out of playing other people's songs isn't it only fair that you should report this - especially since the money they get won't be coming out of your pockets?

you are absolutely right of course, but how many cover bands bother? hardly any I'm guessing, our Guitarist's daughter is in an up and coming Indy band and they recently received a donation from the PRS from the unclaimed royalty fund

 

[cetera]

Just now, PaulWarning said:

 

you are absolutely right of course, but how many cover bands bother? hardly any I'm guessing, our Guitarist's daughter is in an up and coming Indy band and they recently received a donation from the PRS from the unclaimed royalty fund

 

Tribute bands who play 'concert tariff' venues regularly do..... and so they should....
Sadly, only some cover bands in pubs/clubs that claim under the 'gigs & clubs scheme' include their cover songs in their declared set list.....

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

you are absolutely right of course, but how many cover bands bother? hardly any I'm guessing, our Guitarist's daughter is in an up and coming Indy band and they recently received a donation from the PRS from the unclaimed royalty fund

IME you have to hit a royalty payment threshold in order to be eligible for this. Most bands that are just getting performance royalties from gigs don't manage it - certainly the Terrortones never quite made it even in our most prolific gigging years. 

However a band that I was in during the 80s recorded a 3-track session that was broadcast once on Radio Trent, which did generate enough performance royalties to be eligible for a (very small) share from the unlogged royalty fund  for the next 2 or 3 years.

[PaulWarning]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

IME you have to hit a royalty payment threshold in order to be eligible for this. Most bands that are just getting performance royalties from gigs don't manage it - certainly the Terrortones never quite made it even in our most prolific gigging years. 

However a band that I was in during the 80s recorded a 3-track session that was broadcast once on Radio Trent, which did generate enough performance royalties to be eligible for a (very small) share from the unlogged royalty fund  for the next 2 or 3 years.

I wish we had hit the threshold but it's our Guitarist's daughter's band that has, they're called Kagoule 

[BigRedX]

IME you need some significant radio play to qualify.