Fake logos on instruments

[Dad3353]

On 26/12/2017 at 19:43, prowla said:

I noticed today that another bass forum I frequent has instituted a policy of no sales of fake instruments, ie. ones which are manufactured with, or have subsequently had applied, logos of a different manufacturer; the most common one being Fender (because aftermarket waterslide logos are easy peasy), but there are also the ones which are produced as fakes (the "Chibson"s, etc.).

Some of them can be quite difficult to spot, as the "ebay weird & wonderful" forum often highlights.

Would it be an appropriate policy to institute here too?

As a corollary, it's illegal in the UK to sell an item bearing the trademark of another company, but some folks seem to think it's alright, buyer beware, it's OK if you say it's a fake, or it doesn't apply to personal sales.

I think that, in allowing them to be sold via here, the site is tacitly approving forgeries.

This is the original post (not a fake..!). The question posed was 'Should Basschat not allow inappropriately marked (ie: illegal...) items to be sold in the Marketplace..?'...). That's all. Well..? Should BC apply the law (which implies the Ric solution, to be certain of letting nothing through...). Well..?

[prowla]

25 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

Putting a logo on your bass doesn't make it illegal,i could write it on with a marker ,selling it 100% as a bass with a logo on isn't selling a fake either.What about putting a Fender stamped neck plate on or a genuine Fender neck on a bitsa?.If you sell it and describe it honestly i'm not sure what's illegal or fake about it.If i sell my bass and put on THIS ISN'T FENDER what law am i breaking?bearing in mind everything but the neck is Fender japan

Putting a fake logo on a bass and selling it is illegal - that's the point!

[fretmeister]

3 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

Not sticking my fingers anywhere,you said it,its a guy selling a copy bass to another guy who knows it is,not heroin dealing .No ones stamped down on it or made it an issue because it isn't one

So you are arguing an action isn’t illegal because they are not in trouble?

pinching a kitkat is still theft even if you get away with it! 

 

No no it’s not heroin. It’s copyright and trademark offences. Still against the law. Still illegal.

less important than heroin? Maybe. Depends on priorities. That’s the old jurisprudence argument - what is worse? Murder or tax evasion? Murder affects a small group of people intensely. Tax evasion affects everybody a little bit. Plenty of research on that.

 

the fact that you like to move goalposts and claim the offence is not important to you does not mean the action is now lawful. It isn’t.

 

the fact that I don’t care if Mr Blogs in Swansea won’t wear a crash helmet does not mean my indifference makes his offence suddenly legal.

[prowla]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

This is the original post (not a fake..!). The question posed was 'Should Basschat not allow inappropriately marked (ie: illegal...) items to be sold in the Marketplace..?'...). That's all. Well..? Should BC apply the law (which implies the Ric solution, to be certain of letting nothing through...). Well..?

The nuclear option was not the intent.

For reasons already covered, the Ric solution does not apply to other brands, ie. because Ric police their entire design as IP, whereas others do not; therefore anything that looks like a Ric is in scope, whereas anything that looks like a Fender is not.

ebay and other sites have such a policy, but they still sell items, so there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater; their process is to react to alerts from members and/or interested parties.

As you've pointed out, the rules already exist anyway, and also you've said that flagging up these illegal items will be actioned.

I think that the numbers are maybe 1%, so it's not like this is a haven of counterfeiters plying their wares.

So no, I don't think the Ric solution should be applied across the board.

[jazzmanb]

1 minute ago, fretmeister said:

So you are arguing an action isn’t illegal because they are not in trouble?

pinching a kitkat is still theft even if you get away with it! 

 

No no it’s not heroin. It’s copyright and trademark offences. Still against the law. Still illegal.

less important than heroin? Maybe. Depends on priorities. That’s the old jurisprudence argument - what is worse? Murder or tax evasion? Murder affects a small group of people intensely. Tax evasion affects everybody a little bit. Plenty of research on that.

 

the fact that you like to move goalposts and claim the offence is not important to you does not mean the action is now lawful. It isn’t.

 

the fact that I don’t care if Mr Blogs in Swansea won’t wear a crash helmet does not mean my indifference makes his offence suddenly legal.

i'm not arguing right or wrong,it's questioning whether its worthy of action or debate.Show me where i'm moving goalposts,i can't even remember a questionable Goal we can argue over.Show me a thread where someone has been duped ,someone mentioned a limelight incident,one ?The OP was should something be done ? i say no.

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, jazzmanb said:

i'm not arguing right or wrong,it's questioning whether its worthy of action or debate.Show me where i'm moving goalposts,i can't even remember a questionable Goal we can argue over.Show me a thread where someone has been duped ,someone mentioned a limelight incident,one ?The OP was should something be done ? i say no.

Duped is irrelevant. The item is illegal. It is clearly laid out in the link I posted.

 

here it is again. Just to save you time look8ing for it.

i say the law should be upheld. Why don’t you?

 

[Jono Bolton]

While I'll never understand the lob-on people get for putting Fender badges on non-Fender instruments, if FMIC can't be arsed policing copyright infringement of their own products, then why should BC be expected to do it for them?

[prowla]

3 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

i'm not arguing right or wrong,it's questioning whether its worthy of action or debate.Show me where i'm moving goalposts,i can't even remember a questionable Goal we can argue over.Show me a thread where someone has been duped ,someone mentioned a limelight incident,one ?The OP was should something be done ? i say no.

Well, whether it's worthy of debate is plainly evidenced by the fact that we're on page 22 and you're participating!

The fact is that selling a Limelight with a Fender logo on it is illegal; the laws have been quoted and linked and an ex-policeman has initially argued against, but then come back and posted that yes it is illegal.

Whether someone has been intentionally duped is not entirely the question, but it is an illustration that illegal items are being sold; a few other similar items were also listed, showing that the sale of such illegal items is not a one-off.

[jazzmanb]

11 minutes ago, prowla said:

Putting a fake logo on a bass and selling it is illegal - that's the point!

People spend millions on fake goods every year,well aware they are fake  and thats from big sellers doing big numbers.They get raided and stuff burnt etc which is fair enough,the buyer are seller where perfectly happy with each other. i dont see basses getting passed around one to one with clear statements of what they are being an issue at all. As you said from the outset its illegal (apparently)

[jazzmanb]

5 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

Duped is irrelevant. The item is illegal. It is clearly laid out in the link I posted.

 

here it is again. Just to save you time look8ing for it.

i say the law should be upheld. Why don’t you?

 

Just don't,its all about drawing the line and concentrating on other stuff like the Police overlooking small drug crime etc,chasing down every breaking of every law doesn't make sense .I think you need victims and i wasn't a victim buying my 62ri knock up with a logo on.I knew what i was buying and the guy i sold it to did

[prowla]

3 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

People spend millions on fake goods every year,well aware they are fake  and thats from big sellers doing big numbers.They get raided and stuff burnt etc which is fair enough,the buyer are seller where perfectly happy with each other. i dont see basses getting passed around one to one with clear statements of what they are being an issue at all. As you said from the outset its illegal (apparently)

And that is an opinion to which you are entitled.

However, it is still illegal.

[karlfer]

So, the OP really want's to stop folk selling "adjusted" items on here, even if both parties are happy with the transaction. In a scale of criminality I find it hard to get worked up about a bit of printing on a bit of wood.

The OP  pulled this on one of my ads on Facebook, trying to screw the sale, which led to me blocking him.

Fortunately a mate came round & was delighted with the bass & the price. Sorry Mr Hall if I robbed your IP,  at a price of 8% of one of your products.

If folk aren't allowed to sell these kind of Fender bitsa's on here, it WILL be the death knell for the classifieds.

 

[Cato]

9 minutes ago, Jono Bolton said:

While I'll never understand the lob-on people get for putting Fender badges on non-Fender instruments, if FMIC can't be arsed policing copyright infringement of their own products, then why should BC be expected to do it for them?

Exactly.

I can't believe that anyone genuinely believes that Fender does not know about people rebadging instruments as 'Fenders' or adding logos to replicas.

There an absolutely shedload of online sellers offering fake Fender water slide decals for a start, that would be a logical place to start any legal crackdown.

For whatever reason they are choosing not to take action, either against individuals or companies.

The idea that joe public should have to stand up for them to stop them being taken advantage of is, quite frankly, bizarre.

[fretmeister]

2 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

People spend millions on fake goods every year,well aware they are fake  and thats from big sellers doing big numbers.They get raided and stuff burnt etc which is fair enough,the buyer are seller where perfectly happy with each other. i dont see basses getting passed around one to one with clear statements of what they are being an issue at all. As you said from the outset its illegal (apparently)

As actually proven above the item is illegal and buyer and seller being happy is irrelevant. Of course a happy buyer won’t sue (civil action) the seller... but if TD confiscate the item and burn it, then buyer will sue if seller won’t refund. Won’t be happy then.

 

As for there not being an issue if they are happy... I refer you to my first post in the thread. Your opinion on the law does not change the validity or applicability of the law. You not liking the law does not change the illegal nature of the action. The action is still an offence whether you should think it should be or not.

The law, the courts, the judges, the Trading Standards etc interpretation of the law is entirely unaffected by your opinion of that law.

 

in a nutshell. It is illegal. Your view doesn’t matter. If you want to change the law lobby your MP. Until that time the law should be upheld.

 

[fretmeister]

7 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

Just don't,its all about drawing the line and concentrating on other stuff like the Police overlooking small drug crime etc,chasing down every breaking of every law doesn't make sense .I think you need victims and i wasn't a victim buying my 62ri knock up with a logo on.I knew what i was buying and the guy i sold it to did

There is a victim. FMIC. Their intellectual property has been taken.

 

[fretmeister]

3 minutes ago, karlfer said:

So, the OP really want's to stop folk selling "adjusted" items on here, even if both parties are happy with the transaction. In a scale of criminality I find it hard to get worked up about a bit of printing on a bit of wood.

The OP  pulled this on one of my ads on Facebook, trying to screw the sale, which led to me blocking him.

Fortunately a mate came round & was delighted with the bass & the price. Sorry Mr Hall if I robbed your IP,  at a price of 8% of one of your products.

If folk aren't allowed to sell these kind of Fender bitsa's on here, it WILL be the death knell for the classifieds.

 

No it won’t. It’s a small percentage of the total sales. This approach is taken on the fretboard (largest EU & U.K. Guitar forum) and no one notices when it’s enforced. And it is enforced.

[prowla]

3 minutes ago, karlfer said:

So, the OP really want's to stop folk selling "adjusted" items on here, even if both parties are happy with the transaction. In a scale of criminality I find it hard to get worked up about a bit of printing on a bit of wood.

The OP  pulled this on one of my ads on Facebook, trying to screw the sale, which led to me blocking him.

Fortunately a mate came round & was delighted with the bass & the price. Sorry Mr Hall if I robbed your IP,  at a price of 8% of one of your products.

If folk aren't allowed to sell these kind of Fender bitsa's on here, it WILL be the death knell for the classifieds.

 

I do recall commenting on one this week where someone was trying to sell a Chickenbacker for more than its new price - was that it?

There was another thread recently on FB where someone bought a Rickenbacker bass from a mate; sadly we had to inform him that it wasn't a genuine Rickenbacker.

Given the choice, I'd rather help make sure some schmuck doesn't pay over the odds for a fake, as opposed to supporting or turning a blind-eye to someone selling illegal goods.

[jazzmanb]

20 minutes ago, prowla said:

Well, whether it's worthy of debate is plainly evidenced by the fact that we're on page 22 and you're participating!

The fact is that selling a Limelight with a Fender logo on it is illegal; the laws have been quoted and linked and an ex-policeman has initially argued against, but then come back and posted that yes it is illegal.

Whether someone has been intentionally duped is not entirely the question, but it is an illustration that illegal items are being sold; a few other similar items were also listed, showing that the sale of such illegal items is not a one-off.

i'm at work killing time ,getting paid

[karlfer]

1 minute ago, fretmeister said:

No it won’t. It’s a small percentage of the total sales. This approach is taken on the fretboard (largest EU & U.K. Guitar forum) and no one notices when it’s enforced. And it is enforced.

I admire your confidence.

The reality is you can buy Fender Custom Shop decals, JV neckplates, "case candy " packs, serial number transfers, all online, all hooky. Don't see Fender or the police shutting them down.

We are better off with MEMBERS policing adverts, pretty much works thus far.

Screwing peoples sales threads rather than having the courtesy to PM them first is really not in the spirit of Basschat.

[prowla]

9 minutes ago, Cato said:

Exactly.

I can't believe that anyone genuinely believes that Fender does not know about people rebadging instruments as 'Fenders' or adding logos to replicas.

There an absolutely shedload of online sellers offering fake Fender water slide decals for a start, that would be a logical place to start any legal crackdown.

For whatever reason they are choosing not to take action, either against individuals or companies.

The idea that joe public should have to stand up for them to stop them being taken advantage of is, quite frankly, bizarre.

I think it's so rife with Fender-alikes that they have to choose their battles.

The likelihood of them pursuing a BC-er through the courts for selling counterfeit items is probably quite low.

[Cato]

8 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

There is a victim. FMIC. Their intellectual property has been taken.

 

That's for FMIC to decide.

You can't bring an IP case to court on someone else's behalf.

[jazzmanb]

11 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

As actually proven above the item is illegal and buyer and seller being happy is irrelevant. Of course a happy buyer won’t sue (civil action) the seller... but if TD confiscate the item and burn it, then buyer will sue if seller won’t refund. Won’t be happy then.

 

As for there not being an issue if they are happy... I refer you to my first post in the thread. Your opinion on the law does not change the validity or applicability of the law. You not liking the law does not change the illegal nature of the action. The action is still an offence whether you should think it should be or not.

The law, the courts, the judges, the Trading Standards etc interpretation of the law is entirely unaffected by your opinion of that law.

 

in a nutshell. It is illegal. Your view doesn’t matter. If you want to change the law lobby your MP. Until that time the law should be upheld.

 

Thanks your honour

[karlfer]

6 minutes ago, prowla said:

I do recall commenting on one this week where someone was trying to sell a Chickenbacker for more than its new price - was that it?

There was another thread recently on FB where someone bought a Rickenbacker bass from a mate; sadly we had to inform him that it wasn't a genuine Rickenbacker.

Given the choice, I'd rather help make sure some schmuck doesn't pay over the odds for a fake, as opposed to supporting or turning a blind-eye to someone selling illegal goods.

No it was several weeks ago, at £200.

If you had had the courtesy to pm me YOUR concerns rather than put YOUR OPINION on my sales thread, you might not have whizzed me off so much.

You might like to check my feedback before making remarks like the above quote.

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by karlfer

[jazzmanb]

2 minutes ago, prowla said:

I think it's so rife with Fender-alikes that they have to choose their battles.

The likelihood of them pursuing a BC-er through the courts for selling counterfeit items is probably quite low.

So does this forum,its fixing something that isnt broken

Edited December 28, 2017 by jazzmanb
spelling

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, Cato said:

That's for FMIC to decide.

You can't bring an IP case to court on someone else's behalf.

Not true.

An IP case for civil damages can only be done by FMIC.

 

A criminal case for the criminal offences under  the copyright and trademark laws does not need FMIC approval or even assistance. 

 

Civil and criminal elements of the legislation are different.