Fake logos on instruments

[MB1]

MB1.

Alexander o Neal does a Good "Fake"

[mcnach]

58 minutes ago, prowla said:

I would think that a policy of disallowing them and removing offending ads when flagged (much in the same way as removing offensive posts) would be a lightweight and practical approach.

Squiers with Fender logos applied, Chibsons, etc.; they are simply a deceit.

 

Are they a deceit when advertised as a Squier with a Fender logo?

 

We already can report ads that are deceitful, and action is taken. If a Squier is advertised as a Fender, see what happens. 

[prowla]

6 minutes ago, discreet said:

He who denied it, supplied it.

I put it to you that it was you who in fact started the fake food analogies!

[wateroftyne]

Just now, prowla said:

Well, if I were to, I would've prepared a business case in advance, formulated a product strategy, and practiced responses to possible questions.

However, this isn't Dragon's Den and this thread is a discussion.

:-)

It's also your pitch to the powers that be (of which I am not one) that they make a significant change to their policy. You're going to need a stronger case than 'I think something happened somewhere but I'm not sure'.

 

 

[Hellzero]

4 minutes ago, discreet said:

You do not 'look stupid' in the slightest and none of this is in any way your fault! It's a very easy mistake to make if you don't spend most of your waking hours glued to your computer screen looking at bass guitars, like some people I could mention. I don't do that of course, I'm hardly ever here. I only popped in because it's the holidays. 

You haven't damaged your reputation at all, if anything it has been enhanced by this thread! Calm down and carry on! Happy New Year!

 

Almost 22,000 posts without being glued to your computer is just an amazing score, no ? 

Anyhow this thread is already into the wall and we are just trying to push harder.

I know I won't make friends, but 80% of the Fender vintage market are fakes, so why bother.

Let's do it as it's done as there are 99,99% of honest people in this community which is worth being mentioned. 

Go elsewhere and you'll see the amount of honest forumers... You'll have more than enough fingers, sadly.

The only solution is to ban obvious fakes, but, again, it's quite turbo automatic over here. 

[prowla]

26 minutes ago, KingPrawn said:

You completely right Steve and @Prowla. It really makes me look stupid and I'm sure to many of you its hard to believe. I've heard of Limelight for sure, however, i have genuinely never looked into what they do. I really thought that they were like AMG for Mercs etc. The original advert that I bought it from was not misleading in any way. It stated "Limelight Fender etc" I am an impulsive buyer and not the most technically minded When I saw it I just bought it. It really was that simple. I hope I haven't damaged my reputation too much, anyone who wants to check my feedback will see how long I've been trading and been a member. If anything I think this is an example of how supportive the community is in pointing out to stupid " Schoolboys" like me the error of their ways.  If there are any Mods/Admin following if you feel I should remove the ad, I'm more than happy too. Or just bin it yourselves.

The bigger argument is clearly one for the forum mods and admin to discuss. However, with the level of scrutiny provided by members as in this case, I doubt this is a site many fakers would attempt to infiltrate.

I think you've come across as a decent person.

[prowla]

47 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

It's important to remember that John Hall's RIC is actually a small family business whose protection of their trade dress (or IP, if you will) is vitally important to their continuing to market their brand and products succesfully. They also rely strongly on a rabid & largely all-American fan/customer base to help them do this.

Fender, on the other hand, is a wealthy multinational who don't need to waste energy on small-fry like BC sinced they intelligently managed to corner the market on decent licensed copies in the early 80s - which is why we have Squiers. Gibson did the same thing with Epiphone.

Not sure I'm right in thinking that Limelight no longer flog their expensive knockoffs with Fender logos, but if so it's presumably because FMIC had a little word.

FWIW, not sure if it makes me a whiney, first-world-problems, boo-hoo snowflake or whatever - but I do consider copies with fake logos to be somewhat akin to that kid in the 70s who scraped the "Satellite" logo off his plywood LP copy and daubed "Gibson" on, with white Humbrol model paint. A tiny little bit tragic.

A bit like Neil with his "Martial" cab.

[mcnach]

53 minutes ago, prowla said:

I don't think I ever said that.

Selling an item which is counterfeit is illegal.

If someone sold me Kellogs Cornflakes and they turned out to be cheapo brand bran flakes augmented with sawdust, then I'd have a problem.

 

Then maybe I misunderstood you. So your only problem is with someone SELLING an instrument with the wrong logo, right? 

It would be indeed deceitful... UNLESS stated. For many 'replicas' the logo seems to be part of the visual aspect that makes them attractive. I personally do not care one way or another, I am a bit of a reverse snob in that I take pride in showing the headstock logo when I play a 'lesser brand' and it works and sounds great. I recently had a neck made for me for my old Squier Jazz (maple and wide nut, as opposed to the original rosewood narrow nut on it) and I asked for the original logo to be replicated. It shows Squier Jazz and even the same serial number as the original neck. What's your view on that? Am I being deceitful merely by playing it? It's no longer a Squier bass after all as the neck was made by somebody else. If I chose to sell it in the future, would it be wrong of me to advertise it as a Squier even if I disclose the origin of the new neck, in your view?

[mcnach]

55 minutes ago, prowla said:

Well connoisseurs of cornflakes might dispute that, but they are definitely different from bran flakes.

 

(And that comment was intended for mchach :-) )

 

Hey, that's the wrong logo!  A fake, not me!!!

[Dad3353]

2 minutes ago, mcnach said:

...in the future, would it be wrong of me to advertise it as a Squier even if I disclose the origin of the new neck, in your view?

There you go again, sticking your neck out.  

[prowla]

6 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

It's also your pitch to the powers that be (of which I am not one) that they make a significant change to their policy. You're going to need a stronger case than 'I think something happened somewhere but I'm not sure'.

 

 

I'm guessing that something like this has been discussed before and one example should be all that is required.

There is also the counter argument that if someone posts something which is a fake, then there is no basis in the current rules to deny them.

But If I see more, I'll flag them up!

[wateroftyne]

Just now, prowla said:

I'm guessing that something like this has been discussed before and one example should be all that is required.

There is also the counter argument that if someone posts something which is a fake, then there is no basis in the current rules to deny them.

But If I see more, I'll flag them up!

I'm still not seeing any concrete examples of someone being deliberately deceived. Can you provide?

As for reporting future attempts... absolutely do that - that's what the report button and the mods are here for.

If we crack on like this, everyone will be happy, and no kittens or puppies will die.

[mcnach]

5 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

There you go again, sticking your neck out.  

 

well, I have a spare one

[prowla]

4 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

Then maybe I misunderstood you. So your only problem is with someone SELLING an instrument with the wrong logo, right? 

It would be indeed deceitful... UNLESS stated. For many 'replicas' the logo seems to be part of the visual aspect that makes them attractive. I personally do not care one way or another, I am a bit of a reverse snob in that I take pride in showing the headstock logo when I play a 'lesser brand' and it works and sounds great. I recently had a neck made for me for my old Squier Jazz (maple and wide nut, as opposed to the original rosewood narrow nut on it) and I asked for the original logo to be replicated. It shows Squier Jazz and even the same serial number as the original neck. What's your view on that? Am I being deceitful merely by playing it? It's no longer a Squier bass after all as the neck was made by somebody else. If I chose to sell it in the future, would it be wrong of me to advertise it as a Squier even if I disclose the origin of the new neck, in your view?

As I said, if people want to do things in their own bedroom, then that's up to them. It only turns into an issue (from the point of ads) when they decide to sell it.

Your example of the replacement part for your Squier is an interesting one and I'm surprised nobody has brought up a similar argument already; my thought would be that were you to sell it, it would be fine if you included the original neck and declared the replacement one.

My opinion is that the part(s) bearing the serial number define its brand.

That said, for a sub-£100 bass, a decent replacement neck may be worth more than the rest anyway!

[prowla]

5 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I'm still not seeing any concrete examples of someone being deliberately deceived. Can you provide?

As for reporting future attempts... absolutely do that - that's what the report button and the mods are here for.

If we crack on like this, everyone will be happy, and no kittens or puppies will die.

As I say, I'll get back if I spot any.

I'll be honest and say that, because I look at many sites, I may have an overall picture rather than a site-specific one, and will also repeat that the OP was triggered by a couple of things which happened to coincide.

[prowla]

12 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

Hey, that's the wrong logo!  A fake, not me!!!

Darn - I could've sworn I typed an 'n' there!

[wateroftyne]

Just now, prowla said:

As I say, I'll get back if I spot any.

I'll be honest and say that, because I look at many sites, I may have an overall picture rather than a site-specific one, and will also repeat that the OP was triggered by a couple of things which happened to coincide.

Yeah, I think that's what's happened.

[Dad3353]

16 minutes ago, prowla said:

...
There is also the counter argument that if someone posts something which is a fake, then there is no basis in the current rules to deny them...

Extracts from T & Cs (my Bold...)...

...
You also explicitly agree that you shall not:

( a ) provide any content or conduct yourself in any way that may be construed as;

unlawful, illegal, threatening, harmful, abusive, harassing, stalking, tortuous, defamatory, libellous, vulgar, obscene, offensive, objectionable, pornographic, designed to interfere or interrupt this web site or any service provided, infecting with a virus or other destructive or deleterious programming routine, giving rise to civil or criminal liability, violate an applicable local, national or international law, impersonate or misrepresent your association with any person or entity, forge or otherwise seek to conceal or misrepresent the origin of any content provided by you, collect or harvest any data about other users.
...
( c ) Provide any content that may give rise to civil or criminal liability of the Administrators, or that may constitute or be considered a violation of any local, national or international law, including -- but not limited to -- laws relating to copyright, trademark, patent, or trade secrets.
...
13. Notification of copyright infringement
If you believe that your property has been used in any way that would be considered a copyright infringement or a violation of your intellectual property rights, you agree to contact one of the Administrators immediately to inform them of the breach and to permit them to address your concerns before taking any form of legal advice.
...
Rules and Guidelines for the Marketplace
...
Guidelines for SELLERS
...
4. Moderators will step in and remove fraudulent or otherwise dodgy items. If there are any concerns or questions please PM a moderator.
...
Use of the Marketplace is offered on the basis of good faith.
The moderating team accept that 'mistakes' can happen but members should be aware that a pattern of two or more breaches of the above terms may risk loss of access to the Marketplace.
...

Maybe worth reading in its entirety..?

Edited December 27, 2017 by Dad3353

[prowla]

10 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Extracts from T & Cs...

...
You also explicitly agree that you shall not:

( a ) provide any content or conduct yourself in any way that may be construed as;

unlawful, illegal, threatening, harmful, abusive, harassing, stalking, tortuous, defamatory, libellous, vulgar, obscene, offensive, objectionable, pornographic, designed to interfere or interrupt this web site or any service provided, infecting with a virus or other destructive or deleterious programming routine, giving rise to civil or criminal liability, violate an applicable local, national or international law, impersonate or misrepresent your association with any person or entity, forge or otherwise seek to conceal or misrepresent the origin of any content provided by you, collect or harvest any data about other users.
...
( c ) Provide any content that may give rise to civil or criminal liability of the Administrators, or that may constitute or be considered a violation of any local, national or international law, including -- but not limited to -- laws relating to copyright, trademark, patent, or trade secrets.
...
13. Notification of copyright infringement
If you believe that your property has been used in any way that would be considered a copyright infringement or a violation of your intellectual property rights, you agree to contact one of the Administrators immediately to inform them of the breach and to permit them to address your concerns before taking any form of legal advice.
...
Rules and Guidelines for the Marketplace
...
Guidelines for SELLERS
...
4. Moderators will step in and remove fraudulent or otherwise dodgy items. If there are any concerns or questions please PM a moderator.
...
Use of the Marketplace is offered on the basis of good faith.
The moderating team accept that 'mistakes' can happen but members should be aware that a pattern of two or more breaches of the above terms may risk loss of access to the Marketplace.
...

Thanks - I looked at the abridged rules which are in the selling section:

 

So, actually, it looks like the rules already state (my bold) "... Provide any content that may give rise to civil or criminal liability of the Administrators, or that may constitute or be considered a violation of any local, national or international law, including -- but not limited to -- laws relating to copyright, trademark, patent, or trade secrets.".

Which kind of covers it : fake logos are a violation of copyright and trademark!

Can you link to those T&Cs, please, as I couldn't find them!

Edited December 27, 2017 by prowla

[Bassassin]

29 minutes ago, timmo said:

I very much doubt it. Ebay have been doing it for years. Maybe if it was prolific, but one incident is unlikely to even register anywhere

Ebay take down "counterfeits" when reported/spotted. Why? They don't want to be involved in litigation from brand & copyright owners, and they can be very anal/absolutist about this. Trust me, it's really tricky to sell a 70s MIJ copy of a Gibson LP (without a fake logo!) when you can't say what it's a copy of!

I don't know specifically about Fender but a lot of manufacturers (RIC is one) take individual complaints very seriously, in order to protect their brand reputation.

[timmo]

9 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

Ebay take down "counterfeits" when reported/spotted. Why? They don't want to be involved in litigation from brand & copyright owners, and they can be very anal/absolutist about this. Trust me, it's really tricky to sell a 70s MIJ copy of a Gibson LP (without a fake logo!) when you can't say what it's a copy of!

I don't know specifically about Fender but a lot of manufacturers (RIC is one) take individual complaints very seriously, in order to protect their brand reputation.

They do, that is true, but lots slip through the net. All this site have to do is do the same as Ebay and take it down when they find out.

[discreet]

47 minutes ago, prowla said:

I put it to you that it was you...

He who articulated it, particulated it.

[discreet]

47 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Almost 22,000 posts without being glued to your computer is just an amazing score, no ? 

Yeah, most of those are just accusing people of farting.

[prowla]

Here are some examples of Fender logo'd instruments from this month's bass classifieds:

 

 

 

 

I may have missed some for December and I didn't go back further.

 

 

[prowla]

6 minutes ago, discreet said:

He who articulated it, particulated it.

I participated but not instigated.