Vintage Instruments: Quality or Psychosomatics?

[Frank Blank]

At the risk of sounding like a utter fool, can someone explain to me why people like older instruments, vintage basses and the like? I’ll tell you for why. Years and years ago I was sitting in on a Killing Joke rehearsal, I’d just been to a West End music shop with a friend of mine and he’d purchased a cheap Washburn semi-acoustic. Geordie (KJ’s guitarist) asked to look at the guitar and plugged it into his rig “It won’t sound any different to mine” he said, laughing and gesturing with his head towards his beautiful 1952 Gibson ES-295. And guess what? It didn’t sound any different, not at all. So what’s the point of vintage instruments other than a display of what you can afford? I’m not knocking anyone who owns such instruments, I’m just trying to understand it, not least in case I’m missing out somehow! Surely modern instruments benefit from being designed and built using modern methods and technology? I have played vintage basses and very expensive modern hand built basses and none of them have sounded or played any better than any of my sub £1000 (and in a couple of cases sub £500) basses. I have talked with the luthier who sets up my guitars and basses about that and he speculated that most instruments simply aren’t set up correctly and that makes so much difference to the playability and tone (I have to agree here, I think I realised the first time he set up one of my basses that I had simply never played a correctly set up bass before). So, in summary, how or why are vintage instruments any better than modern, current models? I have never found this to be the case, is it just a myth or a marketing ploy, is it just peacock strutting with the most expensive or rare items? Or is there something I’m missing or just don’t know or understand, is there an old Jazz bass out there that I’d play and have the vintage revelation?

I am mindful here of the story about the chap who only discovered his second-hand $35 violin was, in fact, a Stradivarius after it was run over by a bus, only then did he realise it was worth a million dollars, nothing in the playability or the tone led him to think it was anything special before he saw the name.

[Burns-bass]

It’s a loaded question and sure to stoke a lively debate. As someone who has owned literally hundreds of instruments - including some of the rare vintage Fenders you’re talking about - some of them (but not all) are genuinely beautiful instruments.

As a result of scarcity, all original examples are very much in demand. It’s a search for authenticity I guess, and a vintage tone and feel.

Personally I’ve never played a better instrument than the 1966 Jazz Bass I have. I couldn’t imagine anyone, including bespoke builders, able to create something like it, and I’ve owned or played many of the best.

For example, I can’t understand why anyone would bother to collect first editions of books, but there’s a lovey market out there for it.

 

[Frank Blank]

3 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

It’s a loaded question and sure to stoke a lively debate. As someone who has owned literally hundreds of instruments - including some of the rare vintage Fenders you’re talking about - some of them (but not all) are genuinely beautiful instruments.

As a result of scarcity, all original examples are very much in demand. It’s a search for authenticity I guess, and a vintage tone and feel.

Personally I’ve never played a better instrument than the 1966 Jazz Bass I have. I couldn’t imagine anyone, including bespoke builders, able to create something like it, and I’ve owned or played many of the best.

For example, I can’t understand why anyone would bother to collect first editions of books, but there’s a lovey market out there for it.

 

I suspect any, if not all, the replies will carry certain words and phrases you have so eloquently included, ‘beautiful instruments’, ‘authenticity’, which are, let’s face it, wholly subjective terms. This whole topic is subjective I suppose but they make the best discussions. I’d love to try your bass.

[Funkfingers]

According to this guy, it's all subtractive. He MIGHT know what he's talking about. 

My most recent purchase of his products was built in 2017. Some of the wood used in it is reputed to be over one hundred years old. 

[Len_derby]

There seems to be a strain of nostalgia (especially among the English) that there was once a golden age when things were better.

Luckily we don't apply that to medicine! 😄

[ambient]

I think that with amplified instruments, once the instrument is plugged in it will pretty much sound like any other. The feel and responsiveness to the player between instruments is different though. 

[White Cloud]

46 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

At the risk of sounding like a utter fool, can someone explain to me why people like older instruments, vintage basses and the like? 

....So, in summary, how or why are vintage instruments any better than modern, current models? I have never found this to be the case, is it just a myth or a marketing ploy, is it just peacock strutting with the most expensive or rare items? Or is there something I’m missing or just don’t know or understand

You my friend are not a fool...you are a one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind. You therefore are not missing anything and understand completely. You have sighted the unseen but obvious.

It is all of the above and more...myth, marketing ploy, people strutting about with the most expensive/rare items...human nature my friend

[PaulWarning]

they're not, but they're worth more because people will pay more then try and convince themselves it must sound better because of the  cost, People like to own rare things, makes them feel superior

[Frank Blank]

30 minutes ago, Len_derby said:

There seems to be a strain of nostalgia (especially among the English) that there was once a golden age when things were better.

Luckily we don't apply that to medicine! 😄

That notional golden age of the English is a subject I’m very interested in. It’s a topic explored deeply in Jeremy Paxman’s excellent book The English.

[neilp]

With electric, solid bodied instruments, an awful lot depends on the signal processing you apply. If your amp is run with lots of headroom, clean and with the EQ flat, no effects, the yes, you'll hear differences. If you have EQ'd and compressed the signal and applied effects to get "your tone" then of course you won't hear the differences. I have the instruments I have because I love the way they play and sound, and effects are just that, and used very sparingly FOR EFFECT. The difference in sound between a 66 Jazz and even a VM Squier is easily swamped by EQ and effects, but it is there.

 

[Burns-bass]

39 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I suspect any, if not all, the replies will carry certain words and phrases you have so eloquently included, ‘beautiful instruments’, ‘authenticity’, which are, let’s face it, wholly subjective terms. This whole topic is subjective I suppose but they make the best discussions. I’d love to try your bass.

Thanks for the kind words.

Authenticity isn’t subjective, it either is or isn’t authentic. 

I’ll wait and see what other people have to say, and hope they’re as constructive as we have all been.

[Dan Dare]

The answer is both. Some vintage instruments are wonderful, some less so and some, I've no doubt, are dogs. Same applies to modern instruments - some that are being made today will become sought after classics, others won't. The high prices of vintage instruments are due to scarcity value and because people invest in them. It's the way of the world. No point in straining at it.

[Frank Blank]

28 minutes ago, ambient said:

I think that with amplified instruments, once the instrument is plugged in it will pretty much sound like any other. The feel and responsiveness to the player between instruments is different though. 

This is a very good point but an experience I have never had. I think perhaps my experience with vintage instruments is just limited and I’ve never found an older instrument that played or felt as good as a cheaper modern version.

[Frank Blank]

23 minutes ago, White Cloud said:

You my friend are not a fool...you are a one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind. You therefore are not missing anything and understand completely. You have sighted the unseen but obvious.

It is all of the above and more...myth, marketing ploy, people strutting about with the most expensive/rare items...human nature my friend

That’s very kind of you although I feel there must be something in it, I can’t imagine everyone who plays and prefers a vintage instrument is being hoodwinked. The more I think about it and the more I read these replies the more I realise it is foolish to seek a quantifiable answer to such a subjective query.

[Skol303]

1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

...can someone explain to me why people like older instruments, vintage basses and the like?

Why do people like antiques? Is it nicer eating your dinner off an old Victorian dining table than an IKEA equivalent? The food will taste the same; but that doesn’t mean all other things are equal

Edited January 1, 2018 by Skol303

[Shaggy]

It's a recurrent thread this, and no simple answer.  I think a couple of the factors are -

1. Players hankering after the basses they couldn't afford during their formative years (certainly true in my case!)

2. A connection to a past when things were generally over-engineered rather than disposable, quirky designs got through into production which accountants and marketing men wouldn't contemplate these days, and in many cases were made with materials simply unavailable now - same reason that people like classic cars, watches, etc etc

All but 2 of my 15 basses are made pre -1980, but no rose-tinted spectacles here - during the '60's and '70's almost all entry level and much of the intermediate level instruments were utter shite.  These days it's really hard to buy a bad bass at any level.    Despite having a 1950's Fender P and 1950's to '70's Gibsons my go-to bass is a fully hand built 1980's Steve Smith custom with Bartolini's that is incomparably better than any vintage bass with old pickups and electrics.

Acoustic instruments are a totally different matter - a quality hand-built instrument (and most of the surviving antique ones are the quality ones) will wipe the floor with a mass-produced one.  I'm sure I read somewhere that they hit their tonal peak between 100 - 200 years old and thereafter decline, so those multi-million pound Strads are actually past it.

 

 

[Frank Blank]

22 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

they're not, but they're worth more because people will pay more then try and convince themselves it must sound better because of the  cost, People like to own rare things, makes them feel superior

This is harsh but I wonder if it is a motivator behind some purchases and I can’t say I’m exempt. I have the latest iPhone and if I seriously analyse it there is absolutely no reason I can think of to have it really, my old iPhone does exactly the same. Although I am looking into the subject as far as basses goes I fear I am an example of your postulation in phone acquisition, I still can’t explain why I do so though.

[Frank Blank]

 

50 minutes ago, Len_derby said:

Luckily we don't apply that to medicine! 😄

This is very true. I do mourn the age of hat wearing but embrace world that includes advanced medicine.

[Frank Blank]

20 minutes ago, neilp said:

With electric, solid bodied instruments, an awful lot depends on the signal processing you apply. If your amp is run with lots of headroom, clean and with the EQ flat, no effects, the yes, you'll hear differences. If you have EQ'd and compressed the signal and applied effects to get "your tone" then of course you won't hear the differences. I have the instruments I have because I love the way they play and sound, and effects are just that, and used very sparingly FOR EFFECT. The difference in sound between a 66 Jazz and even a VM Squier is easily swamped by EQ and effects, but it is there.

 

This is what I’m after, what are the ‘differences’ of which you speak?

[Frank Blank]

22 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

Thanks for the kind words.

Authenticity isn’t subjective, it either is or isn’t authentic. 

I’ll wait and see what other people have to say, and hope they’re as constructive as we have all been.

I agree with you to an extent, as in a Fender of a certain year either is or isn’t the genuine article but I think a lot of people use that as an umbrella term to cover vintage instruments generally thus excluding modern instruments when perhaps some genuinely authentic older instruments may be only as good or sometimes not as good as a modern one but the modern ones are disregarded simply because they aren’t ‘authentic’ in the generalised sense I’ve talked about.

I agree, it’s been a delight to hear constructive and interesting discussion.

[Frank Blank]

27 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

The answer is both. Some vintage instruments are wonderful, some less so and some, I've no doubt, are dogs. Same applies to modern instruments - some that are being made today will become sought after classics, others won't. The high prices of vintage instruments are due to scarcity value and because people invest in them. It's the way of the world. No point in straining at it.

Very wise words. In the end we are, of course, pleasing ourselves and if that is at a cost so be it. I play acoustic bass mostly so I am fully satisfied with the modern basses I have acquired but I still yearn for a Fender Jazz that actually slays me.

[Frank Blank]

On 01/01/2018 at 14:52, Skol303 said:

Why do people like antiques? Is it nicer eating your dinner off an old Victorian dining table than an IKEA equivalent? The food will taste the same; but that doesn’t mean all other things are equal

I agree but this is the essence of my question, what, if anything, are the quantifiable aspects of the Victorian table that make it superior or inferior to the IKEA table? Or is it all subjective taste.

I’m now realising this is one of the central themes of Robert M. Pirsig’s superb novel Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Enquiry Into Morals...

*runs to bookshelf*

Edited December 28, 2019 by Frank Blank

[T-Bay]

I would buy a Victorian table because it will be made of better quality materials and built to last. An Ikea one will most likely be a load of junk that won’t last. Not sure the same is true with instruments. I would imagine a new Fender would last as well as an old one. I love old stuff as I feel it has ‘history’ but I appreciate it won’t be any better because of that. With a bass the sound is the first and primary consideration for me.

[Frank Blank]

23 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

It's a recurrent thread this, and no simple answer.  I think a couple of the factors are -

1. Players hankering after the basses they couldn't afford during their formative years (certainly true in my case!)

2. A connection to a past when things were generally over-engineered rather than disposable, quirky designs got through into production which accountants and marketing men wouldn't contemplate these days, and in many cases were made with materials simply unavailable now - same reason that people like classic cars, watches, etc etc

All but 2 of my 15 basses are made pre -1980, but no rose-tinted spectacles here - during the '60's and '70's almost all entry level and much of the intermediate level instruments were utter shite.  These days it's really hard to buy a bad bass at any level.    Despite having a 1950's Fender P and 1950's to '70's Gibsons my go-to bass is a fully hand built 1980's Steve Smith custom with Bartolini's that is incomparably better than any vintage bass with old pickups and electrics.

Acoustic instruments are a totally different matter - a quality hand-built instrument (and most of the surviving antique ones are the quality ones) will wipe the floor with a mass-produced one.  I'm sure I read somewhere that they hit their tonal peak between 100 - 200 years old and thereafter decline, so those multi-million pound Strads are actually past it.

 

 

Superb comment, I agree with 1 and 2, certainly 1 applies to me but 2 is the crux of the matter, are those older instruments actually ‘better’ than modern ones in any quantifiable way. Do we just spend money along this ‘vintage is better’ path until we luck out on an older instrument that we actually love or happen across a modern one and see the light? Again I’m not dissing anyone for seeking or owning a vintage instrument, I’m just trying to quantify what makes such an instrument superior that is outside of personal taste, and how, if at all, we can approach such instruments and objectively assess them without the baggage of our bass players subjective knowledge of such instruments.

[Frank Blank]

2 minutes ago, T-Bay said:

I would buy a Victorian table because it will be made of better quality materials and built to last. An Ikea one will most likely be a load of junk that won’t last. Not sure the same is true with instruments. I would imagine a new Fender would last as well as an old one. I love old stuff as I feel it has ‘history’ but I appreciate it won’t be any better because of that. With a bass the sound is the first and primary consideration for me.

Now we are getting somewhere. The quality of materials. Now as much as I agree about the Victorian table vs the IKEA one is this true with basses, are vintage made of superior materials? I like some old things as I like some modern but I have still never found a bass that sounded of felt any better than my first Fender Modern Player once it was correctly set up. I almost feel like I’m missing out on the goings on in an exclusive club because I do not have an older, more expensive instrument, what I’m trying to ascertain is would I join that club simply because I wanted in with an exclusive club or would I wander in only to be confronted by a group of people operating under an obvious fallacy?