Vintage Instruments: Quality or Psychosomatics?

[T-Bay]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Unless of you're course you're thinking of having them buried with you in a hidden Egyptian tomb as @BigRedX plans to (see above). We've advised that given the costs of such structures he should go for a MIM version or possibly a modern Chinese factory. Whichever option the tomb should be properly set up.

Otherwise...All basses get moved on in the end.

And of course no one should should put a Egyptian logo on a tomb MIM or China and try to sell it on here.

[josie]

My will leaves two of my guitars/basses to musicians who are close friends, and the others to my children and grandchildren, and specifically says they are "to be played and not sold". My guess is that my older son will end up with the guitars, my younger son with the 4-string basses, and my currently 4yo grandson with the 5s. And they will be treasured, and played.

By the time that happens, I hope, the 1992 Jazzes will count as vintage, and even the 2012-ish GMRs will be "mature" :-)

[Woodinblack]

8 hours ago, pmjos said:

It was however hand made to the last nut by Fender in the Fullerton in 1962. These things are valued because they are good and in many cases better than good.  These are the very bones of our musical history and they are irreplaceable. There are many companies making a living building 'just like Leo' basses and charging an arm and a leg for them. They aspire to create 'that sound'.

Indeed - so yes, you do care who makes it because of 'heritage' and 'history', which are obviously not real attributes of a musical instrument and the 'look' which is subjective (and frankly a 60s Jazz bass looks pretty similar to a copy of a 60s Jazz bass).

I have played a couple of older fenders (in the 60s, P and J basses). Some were good, a couple weren't. Whether they sounded good or played well didn't really seem to affect the price, it seemed more related to how original they were and the quality of the finish. 

Certainly I don't count any of the 60s / 70s fenders in the 'best basses I have ever seen / played', and as I am not a particular fender fan, the look isn't something I am that bothered about.

8 hours ago, pmjos said:

Why if people have the money should they not want one? But who has that kind of money?

How many people on here have cars that cost over £15k and loose 20% plus every year. Err.....go get a cheap old junk yard dog and buy a vintage Fender. Keep it for5 years and make 30% plus. Hmmm................what can the attraction be?

Yes,  a collectors item, no question about it. Although there are far better investments, they are nice to have if you like the look of them and are into the history and heritage aspects, in the same way as classic cars and old wines etc.

I would never judge anyone for having anything they wanted, but that doesn't fundamentally make them better instruments, it makes the better choices for retaining money, and for me, not being interested in heritage or collectors items, and not being good with money, seems crazy money to pay on something that looks just like anything else, unless it was the best sounding bass I had ever heard, and for me, I have yet to hear one that is. 

[Bluewine]

My 2000 MIJFender P. It's a great slab. Throw a nice set of light round sounds on it every once in a while. Not my most expensive but coolest basses.

 

Blue

[jazzmanb]

First 10/15 years  I had one bass ,a 75 original jazz ,good first choice of course

occasional rock type gigs ,back line only 

Had a long break and managed to extend my collection ,old ricks and more fenders I played in the house and the odd charity mates gig 

Started gigging with a semi  pro set up about 7 years ago ,big PA.Realised my amps Di was no good and most of my lovely basses had issues ,crackles, buzzes, volume loss etc 

Even a newish P bass had an earth issue 

Picked up a Sadowsky vintage metro on a whim and all that stuff disappeared overnight .Even girlfriends of the band noticed how it sounded 

The sound guy was gobsmacked .It never gets played between gigs and I still play the older guitars at home and the odd half set 

If you're Geddy lee you can get all your vintage stuff perfect and keep it there not so much blokes like me 

[discreet]

5 hours ago, Bluewine said:

My 2000 MIJFender P. It's a great slab. Not my most expensive but coolest basses.

Loving the simplicity and the body colour with the maple board is just great.

[discreet]

12 hours ago, T-Bay said:

And of course no one should should put a Egyptian logo on a tomb MIM or China and try to sell it on here.

I'm 100% certain there have been no instances of fake tombs being sold through this website.

[chris_b]

If you live and work in a studio it might be important for you to find a vintage bass that sounds better than the rest. One that is noticed and admired in the track. Most of the top US session guys have late 50's or early 60's P basses (some with decades old La Bella flats) as their main recording instruments. If you live in that world then the smallest advantage will get you noticed and working, but even these guys usually won't play their go-to vintage basses on tour. Many of them will go out with newer versions of their studio basses.

If you're semi pro and playing on stage in sonically less than perfect rooms, standing next to a drummer and noisy and unsubtle guitarist the differences and benefits of a vintage bass will be less noticeable.

I play modern P and J basses. On recordings of gigs I've found I usually make them both sound pretty similar out in the audience. So like most of us I just sound like me. What chance do I have of sounding any better than that with a vintage bass? If you think your old or special bass is making you sound better then it might be, but that will just be you on a wave of confidence. Learn how to be that confident on all instruments. You'll always sound better and save yourself a fortune.

[discreet]

2 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If you think your old or special bass is making you sound better then it might be, but that will just be you on a wave of confidence. Learn how to be that confident on all instruments. You'll always sound better and save yourself a fortune.

Yes! What is not generally mentioned in threads about 'which is the best amp?' and 'which is the best bass?' is that for the best bass and the best amp (whatever they are) to be really effective, you also have to be a good bass player. Not necessarily a top technician or a top virtuoso - but confidence can go a very long way if coupled with economy, timing and good note choices... IMHO, of course.

[Al Krow]

53 minutes ago, discreet said:

I'm 100% certain there have been no instances of fake tombs being sold through this website.

I suspect you will find a few buried deep in the 'Sell Anything' section if you look carefully enough, which have escaped the Mods and our resident Egyptologists such as @Osiris. It's a shame: puts honest grave diggers and average treasure hunters such as myself at a clear disadvantage. Makes me want to stick to more modern gear < 10 years old that I can trust.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Al Krow

[discreet]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I suspect you will find a few buried deep in the 'Sell Anything' section if you look carefully enough...

I can only find a copy of 'Tomb Raider', which looks genuine. But maybe I didn't look carefully enough. 

[Osiris]

17 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I suspect you will find a few buried deep in the 'Sell Anything' section if you look carefully enough, which have escaped the Mods and our resident Egyptologists such as @Osiris. It's a shame: puts honest grave diggers and average treasure hunters such as myself at a clear disadvantage. Makes me want to stick to more modern gear < 10 years old that I can trust.

I can do you a good deal on a vintage Fender, owned and extensively gigged by Ramesses the great and also signed by Nefertari. Great condition for its age, the usual cigarette burns on the headstock and camel saliva marks. All original too, apparently. 

[BigRedX]

12 minutes ago, Osiris said:

I can do you a good deal on a vintage Fender, owned and extensively gigged by Ramesses the great and also signed by Nefertari. Great condition for its age, the usual cigarette burns on the headstock and camel saliva marks. All original too, apparently. 

Is that the person who made this album ;-)

 

[dmccombe7]

My oldest bass is my Warwick Thumb 89 i've had since new. To simplify my thoughts tho i'll stick with the Fenders i've had.

Currently my goto bass is a Crafted in Japan Geddy Signature Jazz. It feels comfortable sounds like my older Jazz basses did from memory and the neck feels the same as my 80's Jazz, the main difference being the 80's one had pearl block inlays rather than the black painted ones. I do think the 80's bass was very slightly heavier but that could be down to the fact i was only 9.5st back then and now 12.5st so maybe the basses now just feel lighter altho my Warwick feels as heavy as it always did but i don't generally play it for long periods.

I'd say these two basses have / had a similar build quality, no rough fret edges and all very smooth feel to the neck. Fret heights pretty similar and not too high. Action and set up i've always done my own and they are pretty much same as far as i can remember. Its possible the newer one has a slightly lower action but i am playing lighter these days.

My 2017 Precision deluxe P/J however has a very different feel to it. The fret ends were noticeable and i had to smooth them off. The frets are slightly higher than my jazz too. Bass feels slightly lighter but not much in it. The pick ups on the P/J are good but i find the P pick up not as even tone across it as the J pick up. Its a hard thing to describe to be honest. My Geddy Jazz the pick ups are both pretty even across the range on either pick up. The general build quality just isn't as good as my Geddy Jazz.

From my experience i'm not convinced that the more you spend the better the bass as my Jazz is one of my cheaper basses but its the one i always go to first. 

I'm also not convinced that the older basses will sound or feel better. I think this is more down to individual basses if we are talking Fender. Some older ones will no doubt be first class but others pretty poor. If you are gonna buy an older vintage bass then you really need to try it and have an open mind when trying it. Don't be blinkered by the vintage thing that older is better. I would try some of the newer basses first to get a better perspective on them.

Having said all that i have to admit to the fact I've no experience of what would be classed as a Vintage bass ie 60's Fenders.

 

[MacDaddy]

I was surprised  the YOB (year of birth) bass became a 'thing'.

But anyone born in the 80's and 90's will probably find it cheaper than those born in the 50's and 60's 

[obbm]

2 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

I was surprised  the YOB (year of birth) bass became a 'thing'.

But anyone born in the 80's and 90's will probably find it cheaper than those born in the 50's and 60's 

Those of us born in the 40s are completely stuffed. 

[MacDaddy]

1 minute ago, obbm said:

Those of us born in the 40s are completely stuffed. 

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, discreet said:

I'm 100% certain there have been no instances of fake tombs being sold through this website.

Only cos Mr Secret Police Rickybocker has been monitoring all for sale ads...................

[bassbiscuits]

13 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

I'm also not convinced that the older basses will sound or feel better. I think this is more down to individual basses if we are talking Fender. Some older ones will no doubt be first class but others pretty poor. If you are gonna buy an older vintage bass then you really need to try it and have an open mind when trying it. Don't be blinkered by the vintage thing that older is better. I would try some of the newer basses first to get a better perspective on them.

It's definitely true that old doesn't mean its automatically good. Even among the modest number of vintage basses i've played, some of have been superb, some very mediocre and some a couple just total planks. Modern ones are more consistent, and less likely to have been molested and altered along the way, but I've still played some very mediocre brand new, £1000+ basses. A good bass is a good bass, whatever the pedigree/cost etc.

[Lozz196]

On a serious note, I do think it`s down to the specific instrument, not the year it was made. I had three 70s Precisions, a 77 in white/rosewood, and two 78s in black/maple. One of the 78s weighed 10+ lbs and sounded amazing, the most aggressive Precision I've ever played, I nicknamed it Ian Paisley as it barked at you (so it did). The other 78 weighed about 8lbs, sounded fine, as did the 77 which was about 10.5lbs. Major different weights of supposedly the same build-materials, and radically different sound from one of them. And a mate has a white/rosewood 77 that weighs 13lbs! Just like in The Life of Brian, they are all individuals.

[GuyR]

Most people who have played a good number of vintage basses seem to have had the experience of playing good ones, fantastic ones, and "dogs". Is it coincidence that it is only the fantastic ones that ever come up for sale?

Similarly, considering how many vintage instruments have been modified/refinished/hacked about, it is quite surprising that most of the ones for sale are 100% original. 

Caveat emptor........

Edited January 4, 2018 by GuyR

[la bam]

I cant think of any other industry or product that hasnt improved over the last 50 years.

Tools, cars, motorbikes, computers, speakers, amps, phones, buildings, tv, planes, etc etc - so why wouldnt todays basses be better than ones from 50/60 years ago? 

[VTypeV4]

I would occasionally use a '78 P-Bass (a 'real' one just for clarity) when I used to play in a ten-piece motown group. It didn't belong to me, it was owned by the manager of the group although I kept it good with new strings,  a good setup etc. I didn't use it for every show, probably 1 in 4 or so as I've never been a P-Bass person but it 'fit' most of the music pretty well.

It sounded great and played well although it's build quality wasn't outstanding. There was lots of vintage charm about it as it had a few knocks and marks plus having been used before the smoking ban, had a distinct yellowing of both the body and neck plus it had chromed pick-up and bridge covers - very retro cool.

To echo some of the previous comments, it was good example although it wasn't a good instrument because it was a vintage, it was good because it used quality parts and was adequately put together. I do however believe some of the newer US and Japanese Fenders I've owned were much better built and finished despite not carrying the 'vintage charm' thing with them. My current '06 Squier VM Jazz is also an example of this - it's the best passive Jazz I've owned and I appreciate that 'best' is subjective however, I'd happily pitch it against far more pricey and/or vintage instruments. Some may argue it's not even a 'real' one!

In a nut shell my take on it is that if it's old it may (notice I used 'may', not 'is') be cool but that doesn't strictly make it 'better' and certainly doesn't make it worth what some buyers and collectors ask for these instruments. Prices for pre-CBS Fenders are massive and even CBS era examples - such as the P-Bass I used to play - are worth a lot more than they were 10 - 15 years ago.  

[Bridgehouse]

3 hours ago, GuyR said:

Most people who have played a good number of vintage basses seem to have had the experience of playing good ones, fantastic ones, and "dogs". Is it coincidence that it is only the fantastic ones that ever come up for sale?

Similarly, considering how many vintage instruments have been modified/refinished/hacked about, it is quite surprising that most of the ones for sale are 100% original. 

Caveat emptor........

 

1 hour ago, la bam said:

I cant think of any other industry or product that hasnt improved over the last 50 years.

Tools, cars, motorbikes, computers, speakers, amps, phones, buildings, tv, planes, etc etc - so why wouldnt todays basses be better than ones from 50/60 years ago? 

I think it's worth considering the quite conservative nature of musicians and instruments. 

Look through the classifieds and you will see a large number of basses (possibly even a majority) which are based on the P and J.

Fundamentally simple, a lot of basses today modelled after them are technologically the same. Two bits of wood bolted together with what is effectively 60 years old electronics technology. 

That has a lot to do with taste, and what players want as the manufacturers see it. 

I wanted a vintage Fender bass - the reason why is possibly irrelevant, but I wasn't going to get one to look at but to play. I wanted it to play well and sound great. 

I would say I played about a dozen, all for sale. Out of those I really loved two, I thought about 4 were "meh" and the other 6 were frankly dogs. They were all about the same price.

A different player on a different day might have tried all 12 and come to a completely different conclusion. It's an individual thing. 

I have played some nearly new basses that I have thought of as brilliant - and some I've thought were really very disappointing. I'd say the ratio for me has been about 50/50. 

 

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, la bam said:

I cant think of any other industry or product that hasnt improved over the last 50 years.

Tools, cars, motorbikes, computers, speakers, amps, phones, buildings, tv, planes, etc etc - so why wouldnt todays basses be better than ones from 50/60 years ago? 

When it comes to craftsmanship, things don't necessarily improve. Are any of today's violins better than the ones Stradivarius made, or any of today's painters better than Michaelangelo, or playwrights better than Shakespeare? Genius is genius.

What will have improved is technology. Today's pups will, 9 times out of 10, be an improvement on stuff that was around 40 years ago and the same for the electrics / pre-amps. And if I was to hazard a guess at what the two single most important factors on bass tone on the bass itself (as opposed to the rest of the signal chain), I would go for (i) the pups and (ii) the preamp. 

So give me a modern well designed bass (whether based on a classic body shape or not) made from decent woods, without fear of a warped neck that time and low B string tension have taken their toll on or flaky electrics, and with some great pups and I'm pretty sure I won't be yearning for a better past.