Vintage Instruments: Quality or Psychosomatics?

[Burns-bass]

6 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

So are we saying there is a line over which all objective bets are off? So regardless of its actual tone because it's a Strad it is the pinnacle and therefore beyond criticism simply because it has a name on it? This is a really good point and I like the differentiation between appreciation and fetishisation. Had I known there was going to be so much food for thought I'd not have had such a huge lunch.

The point I’m making is that the instrument is there to make music. My 1966 for example isn’t all original, it’s had a new jack socket to ensure it’s playable. It’s been toured all across the U.K. and Europe, used for recording and even lent to friends. It sounds divine and plays that way too, but if it stopped being functional (truss rod break, needed a refret etc.) I’d get it done.

 

[Frank Blank]

13 minutes ago, Len_derby said:

Hi Frank, it fascinates me too. I can recommend 'Albion' by Peter Ackroyd. A study of the English point-of-view through history. Apparently, the first recorded writing by someone who could be called English, a monk called Gildas, was along the lines of 'things ain't so good as when the Romans were here '. 😂😂

I've taken that recommendation seriously and purchased said book so I should recommend one back, albeit a little more esoteric Lud Heat by Iain Sinclair.

[Frank Blank]

13 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I`ve played a couple of 60s Precisions and they felt great, a couple that were ok, but all the Road Worn Precisions I`ve played felt amazing.I think it`s down to the actual instrument itself as to whether or not it`s worth the money, and even then it`s compatability with the buyer, what is great to some is pony to another.

This is absolutely the core of it, it seems, it's personal taste and no matter how informed that taste is the final arbiter in the purchaser's decision will be personal taste.

[Frank Blank]

5 minutes ago, lurksalot said:

Absolutely , similar with art , antiques , classic cars etc there comes an investment factor which relies on confidence , the old stuff will always be talked up by those with influence as they probably have a vested interest in the value of the things . 

Another important facet to the subject, those of influence who may have a vested interest. I suppose the only counter to that is to become knowledgeable oneself (I am referring to myself here, no one else) in order to be able to counter vested interest with objective knowledge.

[Dad3353]

9 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

...Surely so much of that sound is derived from recording techniques of the time as well..?...

There is, indeed, a thriving market for old reel-to-reel tape decks, and many 'plug-ins' to replicate 'vintage' sounds. Our bass amp is a Hiwatt, I have a Fender Bassman 50 for guitar. 'Old school' is the new black, too..! Now, if only I could graft on a set of Jack Casady fingers...

[Frank Blank]

8 minutes ago, mikel said:

Depends on the individual instrument. Some instruments made by the big manufacturers back in the day were rubbish, and some were absolute gems. I bought a Gibson SG in 1970 and it was poorly built and setup. The intonation was also out and it took a good luthier to sort it out. Probably because Gibson could sell everything they produced at the time and competition was no where near as fierce as it is now. If someone is willing to pay lots of money for and old instrument, then that is what it is worth. It could be for the sound it produces or simply the pleasure of owning something rare and beautiful.

I have often heard this said about Gibson, some are rubbish, some are gems. Both of your conclusions are absolutely right, turns out it is about much more than simple tone...

[GuyR]

The major manufacturers had what seems to be commonly acknowledged as a reduction in quality of their products in the late 60s/early 70s, bringing about a preference for the instruments from the previous era, which was perfectly sensible in the era of the 3 bolt boat-anchor Jazz bass, but less relevant now. 

It may well be that the availability of properly seasoned timber and exotic hardwoods might give older instruments a head-start, but I have to say, when I went to try, then buy, a 64 jazz bass, having a try on the owner's fodera 4 string was quite an eye-opener. It was much the more sophisticated, refined and versatile of the two instruments, but the vintage jazz felt more comfortable, worn-in and enabled me to make a sound that made me happy to part with a sizeable wad. warm and rounded, not harsh or aggressive, with great harmonics and very responsive. How much of that is my wanting to like it who knows, but perhaps no coincidence I spent an hour playing it unaccompanied earlier today.

I have played other pre cbs jazz basses that have been absolutely dead and have not "spoken to me"

How the median-quality pre cbs bass, when new, would compare with the median-quality custom shop current production, sadly is only the subject of conjecture. 

My guess is you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

excellent, good-natured thread btw.

[Frank Blank]

11 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

The point I’m making is that the instrument is there to make music. My 1966 for example isn’t all original, it’s had a new jack socket to ensure it’s playable. It’s been toured all across the U.K. and Europe, used for recording and even lent to friends. It sounds divine and plays that way too, but if it stopped being functional (truss rod break, needed a refret etc.) I’d get it done.

 

I am with you. I am very much of the mind that an instrument is a tool, albeit a tool used to produce that most subjective of things, art! As someone who employs such tools I would like to have the best tools for the job, all my current basses and guitars are modern apart from one battered old classical acoustic that I found under the stairs, this is one of the most played guitars used in my band. It cost £80 in 1978 and once it was set up it became the only classical we use despite me having had two or three modern electro-acoustic classical guitars since, nothing matches the tone, I just don't understand why that is the case?

[Frank Blank]

8 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

There is, indeed, a thriving market for old reel-to-reel tape decks, and many 'plug-ins' to replicate 'vintage' sounds. Our bass amp is a Hiwatt, I have a Fender Bassman 50 for guitar. 'Old school' is the new black, too..! Now, if only I could graft on a set of Jack Casady fingers...

Of course there is, just as there is such a resurgence of vinyl appreciation. I have a very modern AER amp that doesn't colour the sound of the bass or guitar at all, I'm just wondering what, if anything I'm missing by not having a vintage guitar and/or amp? I listen to music from all ages but 'my era' so to speak was punk music so I may have been heavily (if subconsciously) influenced by that scene with its 'make do with whatever gear was available' way of doing things. I never listen to an album by PIL and think I want to replicate the sound of Jah Wobble by  getting similar equipment from the times. I'm not knocking people who do such things, I just think that maybe the punk era kind of frowned on such things, I don't frown on such things but perhaps I'm a product of my era?

[Frank Blank]

11 minutes ago, GuyR said:

The major manufacturers had what seems to be commonly acknowledged as a reduction in quality of their products in the late 60s/early 70s, bringing about a preference for the instruments from the previous era, which was perfectly sensible in the era of the 3 bolt boat-anchor Jazz bass, but less relevant now. 

It may well be that the availability of properly seasoned timber and exotic hardwoods might give older instruments a head-start, but I have to say, when I went to try, then buy, a 64 jazz bass, having a try on the owner's fodera 4 string was quite an eye-opener. It was much the more sophisticated, refined and versatile of the two instruments, but the vintage jazz felt more comfortable, worn-in and enabled me to make a sound that made me happy to part with a sizeable wad. warm and rounded, not harsh or aggressive, with great harmonics and very responsive. How much of that is my wanting to like it who knows, but perhaps no coincidence I spent an hour playing it unaccompanied earlier today.

I have played other pre cbs jazz basses that have been absolutely dead and have not "spoken to me"

How the median-quality pre cbs bass, when new, would compare with the median-quality custom shop current production, sadly is only the subject of conjecture. 

My guess is you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

excellent, good-natured thread btw.

...and this thread is that excellent, good natured conjecture. Again I think the whole subjective/objective schism is beautifully summed up here...

How the median-quality pre cbs bass, when new, would compare with the median-quality custom shop current production, sadly is only the subject of conjecture. 

My guess is you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

[Shaggy]

22 minutes ago, lurksalot said:

Absolutely , similar with art , antiques , classic cars etc there comes an investment factor which relies on confidence , the old stuff will always be talked up by those with influence as they probably have a vested interest in the value of the things . 

Yup - the real unfortunate thing is that wherever there is rarity and potential profit, the vintage market will be driven initially by collectors and then by investors, freezing the actual players out

24 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

What an incredibly interesting tuppence-worth though, trying to replicate the sounds of music from those times by having an instrument of those times. Surely so much of that sound is derived from recording techniques of the time as well..? Actually you are right, it doesn't really matter about the modern equivalent's absolute qualities, you are happy with your choices is all that matters. A very wise tuppence-worth I'd say.

Rock is always looking back - whether it's biker jackets or retro gear.   Didn't the La's obsess with getting the '60's vibe integral to their album recording to the extent that they had to use original 1960's recording desks complete with original 1960's dust?  And can anyone actually hear the difference?

 

[Dad3353]

9 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

...with its 'make do with whatever gear was available' way of doing things...

T'weren't just the punks, lad; we all had to do with whatever came to hand (or that we built ourselves..!) I could afford little, with my apprentice wages, except cheap chipboard for making my own 4 x 12 cab, 36" x 36", with the cheapest cones I could get from Exchange & Mart ads, trailing all the way to Tottenham Court Road to get 'em..! Fun times, but our gear (and most of the folks I knew and played with...) were much the same. I never saw a Fender bass until coming to France in '75.

Happy daze. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Dad3353

[Frank Blank]

1 minute ago, Shaggy said:

Yup - the real unfortunate thing is that wherever there is rarity and potential profit, the vintage market will be driven initially by collectors and then by investors, freezing the actual players out

Rock is always looking back - whether it's biker jackets or retro gear.   Didn't the La's obsess with getting the '60's vibe integral to their album recording to the extent that they had to use original 1960's recording desks complete with original 1960's dust?  And can anyone actually hear the difference?

 

How did you split those quotes btw?

Another good reason for going with modern instruments to shut out the collectors and investors?

I think those who can say they can discern the difference couldn't quantify that difference (not that it matters, all art is subjective after all) but more importantly not feel superior because they can. When people use these old equipment theories for recording I can't ever hear the difference. Then again I'm an old punk so pristine or vintage gear was never an option.

[Skol303]

9 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I am very much of the mind that an instrument is a tool, albeit a tool used to produce that most subjective of things, art!

I think therein lies the root of your perspective on this topic. If you judge instruments purely as tools, then absolutely there is no benefit to playing a vintage bass that can’t be replicated by a modern counterpart. I myself am very much of the IKEA furniture mindset in this regard  

If you impart an instrument with other less practical qualities - heritage, nostalgia, mojo, a sense of comfort, etc - then it becomes something more personal.

If we could ask Nile Rogers why he still plays the same Fender Strat he’s been playing for 40+ years... when a modern Strat would be equally as good (if not better)... then I’d wager his answer would be based on emotions and other undefinable fluff, rather than anything practical. But I’d also wager that particular guitar brings out the best in his playing - not because it’s a better tool for the job, but because of how it makes him feel.

[Frank Blank]

6 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

T'weren't just the punks, lad; we all had to do with whatever came to hand (or that we built ourselves..!) I could afford little, with my apprentice wages, except cheap chipboard for making my own 4 x 12 cab, 36" x 36", with the cheapest cones I could get from Exchange & Mart ads, trailing all the way to Tottenham Court Road to get 'em..! Fun times, but our gear (and most of the folks I knew and played with...) were much the same. I never saw a Fender bass until coming to France in '75.

Happy daze. 

Yes it certainly wasn't only the punk era, I think all musicians, unless one comes from a reasonably privileged background, had to start with home made or scrounged gear. I never owned any quality equipment until I was in my 40s (apart from a Jaydee that I had when I was 25). I think I'm wondering more if using vintage equipment really reproduces the sounds of the times? You have way more experience in this than me.

[Dad3353]

3 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

How did you split those quotes btw?...

To the left of the 'Quote' button is a 'Multi-quote' button (it has a '+' on it; hmm, not so intuitive, it seems...). Try it..? 

[Dad3353]

2 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

...I think I'm wondering more if using vintage equipment really reproduces the sounds of the times?...

Yes, they do (to my cloth ears...), but only those sounds..!  Buzzes, hiss, crackles, pops and occasional smoke. What's not to like..? Oh, yes, and heavy, too...

Edited January 1, 2018 by Dad3353

[Frank Blank]

3 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

I think therein lies the root of your perspective on this topic. If you judge instruments purely as tools, then absolutely there is no benefit to playing a vintage bass that can’t be replicated by a modern counterpart. I myself am very much of the IKEA furniture mindset in this regard  

If you impart an instrument with other less practical qualities - heritage, nostalgia, mojo, a sense of comfort, etc - then it becomes something more personal.

If we could ask Nile Rogers why he still plays the same Fender Strat he’s been playing for 40+ years... when a modern Strat would be equally as good (if not better)... then I’d wager his answer would be based on emotions and other undefinable fluff, rather than anything practical. But I’d also wager that particular guitar brings out the best in his playing - not because it’s a better tool for the job, but because of how it makes him feel.

Not purely as tools, I very much appreciate them as tools but I am also almost fickle about the aesthetics, what I don't really comprehend is the heritage and nostalgia. I understand the comfort but I find that in new as well as old instruments, same with emotions, I respond emotionally to an instrument on several levels but not in the vintage, nostalgic, heritage sense and I'm wondering why I don't. Oddly enough I do with clothes and with books but not with basses or instruments per se. I agree totally btw about the Nile Rogers example, such a long familiarity with the guitar, his love of it must bring out the best in him.

[Frank Blank]

6 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

To the left of the 'Quote' button is a 'Multi-quote' button (it has a '+' on it; hmm, not so intuitive, it seems...). Try it..? 

Not so intuitive to a dolt like me... Sheesh.

[Frank Blank]

5 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Yes, they do (to my cloth ears...), but only those sounds..!  Buzzes, hiss, crackles, pops and occasional smoke. What's not to like..? Oh, yes, and heavy, too...

Ha ha. Superb, I'd have to drink several pints of cider, smoke 10 B&H and have a fight with a glued up skinhead to replicate the sounds of my youth. I haven't enough hair left to recreate the mohican...

[T-Bay]

A lot of it is personal. I have my grandfathers tool kit that he saved up for as an apprentice. I would never sell it, it will be passed onto my daughter. But I wouldn’t buy someone else’s grandfathers tool set unless I needed the tools. Instruments are a bit different somehow, not really sure how but they just seem to be for me. I like the idea that have been making music, giving people a hobby/ living/ enjoyment for many years. I wouldn’t necessarily pay a premium for that though.

[PaulWarning]

2 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

This is harsh but I wonder if it is a motivator behind some purchases and I can’t say I’m exempt. I have the latest iPhone and if I seriously analyse it there is absolutely no reason I can think of to have it really, my old iPhone does exactly the same. Although I am looking into the subject as far as basses goes I fear I am an example of your postulation in phone acquisition, I still can’t explain why I do so though.

maybe the language was a bit harsh, but deep down isn't that why people buy vintage things, to impress other people, it makes them feel good, there again it could be just me that just doesn't get it

[Dad3353]

13 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

...Oddly enough I do with clothes ...

Well, there you are, you see..? I've not the slightest dress sense, and even less aesthetic 'taste' or interest in garments (except socks, maybe; I like to have warm feet...). Oddly, though..? No, quite the norme to be as different as we are all the same. 'I say potato' and all that. Don't sweat it; there's no kittens being harmed. Anyway, nostalgia isn't what it used to be. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Dad3353

[Roger2611]

Great avatar Frank! I think a lot of the vintage thing is snake oil nowadays, sure some of the early instruments were great instruments but as any dealer worth his salt will tell you whilst some are fantastic others can be total rubbish, take the fabled 59 Les Paul as an example, most are apparently fantastic examples and are rightly hugely desireable and sadly spend their lives locked in bank vaults, others were bland ordinary instruments that players owned, realised they didn't like them and sold them on, my bet would be that any 59 /60 Les Paul you see come up for sale on the open market will be one of the latter unspecial instruments!

We all acknowledge that both Gibson and Fender went through some serious build quality instruments back in the late 70's, I guess at that time it was easier for a buyer to guarentee a better instrument if they brought an older 60's instrument, not that all 70's Fenders were bad, that no doubt drove a lot of the move towards the vintage market.

I have a cracking 79 Precision that is a rarity because it weighs in at just under 9lbs and plays and sounds great, I had an exactly the same bass a couple of years ago that weighed in at 10.5 lbs and that sounded ok and played ok, two very different basses from the same year.

Now that Fender and Gibson have far better quality control (and they have to to compete with all the other manufacturers out there) the vintage desireabillity, at least on playing grounds, is somewhat diminished,  I have a custom shop 62 Precision that is perfect for me, it is beautifully built, with nice light woods, it has a nitro finish (which on Fender's I prefer) but is built with over 50 years of experience behind it and to me offers the best of both worlds, the next argument comes because it is a "heavy relic" which sparks the whole "why make a relic" debate but for me it is the best that Fender are currently offering so I brought it!

[Frank Blank]

15 minutes ago, T-Bay said:

A lot of it is personal. I have my grandfathers tool kit that he saved up for as an apprentice. I would never sell it, it will be passed onto my daughter. But I wouldn’t buy someone else’s grandfathers tool set unless I needed the tools. Instruments are a bit different somehow, not really sure how but they just seem to be for me. I like the idea that have been making music, giving people a hobby/ living/ enjoyment for many years. I wouldn’t necessarily pay a premium for that though.

This is very interesting. I 'inherited' several items from my parents deaths but all were imbued with feelings of my childhood and family, whom I (hated is too strong a word as is despised...) shall we say didn't get along with, so (with relish in some cases) threw those things away, happily and cathartically. Whereas some people would be ontologically rooted by such artefacts I disliked any notion of my parents as a reference, maybe that has some bearing on my not understanding vintage and nostalgia.