Is low end gear too cheap?

[mikel]

£300? Luxury.  Only joking. My Yamaha was £210 new and its a splendid instrument. Instrument manufacture is cheaper now than ever through mass production methods, I will gloss over the cheap labour issues for another thread. 

I bought a cheap guitar in 1966 and the action was so high I could have used it as a harp. It weighed about the same as a Transit van and the metal parts were peeling "Chrome" after about 6 weeks. I have a Squire Telecaster I bought in 2000 and it is a great instrument. Light, fast neck, good setup and the pickups sound wonderful. For a cheap guitar it punches well above its weight. Its never been a better time to buy gear.

[phil.c60]

2 hours ago, dlloyd said:

The beer conversion rate works to an extent... but beer prices have risen slightly quicker than inflation, so while prices in general are around 50% higher than they were twenty years ago, beer is 60% more expensive.

There is actually an economic conversion rate based on Mars bars, and it is apparently surprisingly accurate!

[mikel]

23 minutes ago, phil.c60 said:

There is actually an economic conversion rate based on Mars bars, and it is apparently surprisingly accurate!

Did they also factor in how much smaller Mars Bars are now compared to,say, the 1960s? If you play a short scale bass now, instead of a long scale back in the day, It would even out the conversion.  

[Lozz196]

38 minutes ago, phil.c60 said:

There is actually an economic conversion rate based on Mars bars, and it is apparently surprisingly accurate!

I daren`t think about that, as I`d then realise how many over the years I`ve eaten, and that my Mars Bar habit is far worse than my alcohol habit ever was.

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, phil.c60 said:

There is actually an economic conversion rate based on Mars bars, and it is apparently surprisingly accurate!

The Big Mac is also used by economists as an international comparator of prices/wages. It's a standardised product, sold worldwide. You can work out how well paid a country is by calculating how long someone on average wage has to work to afford one.

It isn't only musical instruments that have risen in quality and come down in price. All mass produced goods have, at the budget/medium quality end of the market at any rate. It doesn't necessarily apply at the top end, however. If anything, handmade/custom instruments and products are more expensive. The skills required to produce them are scarcer and increased wealth means more can afford them, so the price goes up until demand = supply.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Dan Dare

[Barking Spiders]

As I said I've got two Cort basses but I got them  before the story about labour conditions got made known. I'm not gonna sell them  as they're fantastic . Besides Cort also make affordable guitars for other brands  but someone buying an Ibanez made in a Cort factory isnt gonna know that

[ambient]

It’s like the clothes you buy in primark or the fact that milk is so cheap. Someone somewhere is taking the hit for it. It’s got to be built, the parts all have to be made and shipped. It’s then shipped all the way across the world to the distributor, then to the shop. Each intermediary is putting their profit onto it. 

It’s undoubtedly the fact that mass production techniques have improved too, but I’m guessing that the workforce where it’s made aren’t paid very much.

[leftybassman392]

Is low-end gear too cheap?

Really?

You think maybe manufacturers are cheating themselves out of profits?

[roceci]

6 hours ago, Marc S said:

I saw that VM fretless, and think I may have commented on it. The gist of my comment was that I had indeed owned a Squier VM fretless Jazz....
I thought about upgrading, and got myself a US Fender P fretless, and sold the Squier Jazz

Although I really liked that US P fretless......  I actually preferred the sound of the Jazz!! Of course, that may have been because I preferred the J pickup config - perhaps I feel it's more suited to fretless?
Now I have a MIJ Fretless Jazz, and it's lovely.... but neither the US, nor the MIJ  were that much better quality than the made in Indonesia VM fretless

EDIT: In fact, I miss that VM fretless, and wish I hadn't bothered to "upgrade"

I can concur that Marc's VM fretless was indeed a lovely bass, having bought it, & still is. Sorry Marc! I've not played many that are markedly better, although I admit I've never been near the £2K+ models of this world. Point is, for the money, it's pretty stupendous & we're lucky that such affordable instruments are so good these days.

10 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

Is low-end gear too cheap?

Really?

You think maybe manufacturers are cheating themselves out of profits?

^^ This. The question here is, how many of us would be prepared to pay say £100 more for the exact same bass it was ethically produced? I like to think I would if there were such a thing as fair trade manufacturers.

[stu_g]

i have a few cheap basses and guitars and the quality seems really good

my vintage V4 bass is a great bass good fit and finish and it has a lovely low action

for what i paid for it i have to say it really suprised me ,ive owned alot of precision basses but i really like the V4

alnico pickup good machineheads, solid neck no gaps round the neck pocket frets well finished  dont know if i got lucky or there all this good.

[Barking Spiders]

10 minutes ago, roceci said:

I can concur that Marc's VM fretless was indeed a lovely bass, having bought it, & still is. Sorry Marc! I've not played many that are markedly better, although I admit I've never been near the £2K+ models of this world. Point is, for the money, it's pretty stupendous & we're lucky that such affordable instruments are so good these days.

^^ This. The question here is, how many of us would be prepared to pay say £100 more for the exact same bass it was ethically produced? I like to think I would if there were such a thing as fair trade manufacturers.

well there of course is fair trade for stuff like coffee and choc but it's one thing to have official policies in place that have mass consumer support and another to police it  effectively from start to finish.  Supply chains are so complex these days it's easy for the criminally minded to find loopholes to abuse. Just cos a product has 'Fair Trade' or 'FSC Approved' etc on it isn't a guarantee all is 100% kosher. I'd pay extra for a guitar if it meant workers got a fair wage and the woods are sustainable but getting the proof is another matter

[roceci]

13 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

well there of course is fair trade for stuff like coffee and choc but it's one thing to have official policies in place that have mass consumer support and another to police it  effectively from start to finish.  Supply chains are so complex these days it's easy for the criminally minded to find loopholes to abuse. Just cos a product has 'Fair Trade' or 'FSC Approved' etc on it isn't a guarantee all is 100% kosher. I'd pay extra for a guitar if it meant workers got a fair wage and the woods are sustainable but getting the proof is another matter

Totally agree with that in relation to existing products. You might as well have donated to Live Aid back in the day  

Would guitar production not be a less contentious industry than say coffee though with its turf wars/gang assocation/cartels etc...I dunno.

[Marc S]

31 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

well there of course is fair trade for stuff like coffee and choc but it's one thing to have official policies in place that have mass consumer support and another to police it  effectively from start to finish.  Supply chains are so complex these days it's easy for the criminally minded to find loopholes to abuse. Just cos a product has 'Fair Trade' or 'FSC Approved' etc on it isn't a guarantee all is 100% kosher. I'd pay extra for a guitar if it meant workers got a fair wage and the woods are sustainable but getting the proof is another matter

Yes, I think you're spot on here. I'm fairly sure that most manufacturers and food producers etc who say they are fair trade, in fact actually are fair trade - as far as they can confirm this.
Many will indeed source fair trade materials / foods / ingredients etc and check on these items and sources, and even ensure further checks are made from time to time, to ensure consistency....
However, as you say, supply chains being what they are, and some businesses being what they are - I'm sure that some of them may be finding loopholes..... sadly

I would be willing to pay a bit more, if that ensured that sustainability, fair wages and working conditions could be guaranteed

PS. roceci - I really do wish I'd kept that VM fretless - it was an absolutely lovely bass (you know, I wasn't just saying so at the time! - it wasn't a sales pitch lol)
You have a good 'un there matey.... honestly, US / MIM and MIJ versions of the same bass are not that much better.....
Perhaps the pickups could be improved - but I seem to recall that even they were pretty good, for such a reasonably priced instrument...

Edited January 11, 2018 by Marc S

[Twanger]

Food for thought. I, too, would pay a bit more for a fairer deal, but I'd need to know that the bit more ended up in the  employees' pockets.

The VM P is a nice fretless. I will tweak it, as I'm an inveterate tweaker. It would be fun to bung a piezo bridge on it. Now, that's an idea. Any one know of a piezo bridge from a sustainable/ fairtrade source?

[gjones]

I bought a standard Squier, Indonesian made, Jazz Bass, on Basschat, for £95. I subsequently bought a Geddy Lee Jazz and a MIJ 62 reissue (both history now) but I still preferred the Squier. My nephew has it now.

Edited January 11, 2018 by gjones

[Cato]

8 hours ago, chris_b said:

The argument that it's OK to give workers poor pay and bad working conditions because the alternative is worse wasn't acceptable in the UK in the 1800's and isn't valid anywhere else today.

Do we know that these workers have low pay and poor working conditions?

It's very emotive to hear that a worker in x profession in x country only gets paid £100 a month, but what's actually  important is what that £100 buys in their native country.

If they can feed ,clothe and shelter their families for a month for that sum then, in real terms it's actually the equivalent of a UK wage of much higher nominal value.

I'm not saying exploitation doesn't happen, it obviously does, just that detecting it isn't as straightforwards as just looking at a weekly or monthly wage directly converted into pounds or dollars.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Cato

[kodiakblair]

Average monthly  wage of factory worker in Shenzhen last year was $938

In Croatia it was $887, Lithuania folks got $956 and Latvia workers $1006. The demand for factory workers in the Shenzhen province is so high when workers in factory A hear from their friends that factories B & C pay 5p more there's a mass exodus. Folks in Shanghai earn $1135.

 

 

Meanwhile in the USA several states have repealed their minimum wage laws.  Missori and Iowa are both back to the Federal minimum for non-tipped workers of $7.70, Maine is aiming for $7.25. Average hourly rate for US factory workers was $10.37.

[Burns-bass]

I think the transfer of production to the Far East has transformed the guitar industry.

One of my first basses was an Aria Pro II The Cat Bass - and that thing still plays well to this day. It cost me £95 I think, and is a fantastic working and playing bass.

[mikel]

I would certainly pay a more realistic price for food and milk, if it meant the farmers were making a decent profit.  If it was the supermarkets taking a hit cos they want to sell milk as a loss leader then it wouldnt be so bad, but all they do is screw the producers into the ground. Probably the same with instruments.

[Rubbersoul]

Think TVs and the like. Back in the 70s if you had 1 black and white telly you were lucky: now we have flat screen, UHD, 4K etc in every bloody room. Technology has made the production of previously unattainable goods (for most of us) dirt cheap. I like it!

[TheGreek]

30 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

I think the transfer of production to the Far East has transformed the guitar industry.

One of my first basses was an Aria Pro II The Cat Bass - and that thing still plays well to this day. It cost me £95 I think, and is a fantastic working and playing bass.

My bro sells antiques - got one for free in a job lot. He had no idea whether it was any good or not..

[GuyR]

A jv squier bass was £220 in Denmark st in 1984. I've still got the receipt. And the bass. Starter gear is much better value now than ever before. Rightly or wrongly, I doubt many new players worry too much about the ethics of production

[Guest MoJo]

19 hours ago, stu_g said:

i have a few cheap basses and guitars and the quality seems really good

my vintage V4 bass is a great bass good fit and finish and it has a lovely low action

for what i paid for it i have to say it really suprised me ,ive owned alot of precision basses but i really like the V4

alnico pickup good machineheads, solid neck no gaps round the neck pocket frets well finished  dont know if i got lucky or there all this good.

I'm on my third now and they've all been good

[stu_g]

mine is the vintage white also couldnt resist it and im glad I bought it.

[discreet]

Is low end gear too cheap?

Having experienced the 'beginner' basses of the 60s and 70s, I say 'NO'.