How Many Notes Does it Take to Make a Chord?

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[prowla]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

In most dictionaries, for instance...

Definition of a 'chord' in music ...

... and in many music theory sources ...

Chords defined ...

Although I could have referenced several that allow two notes as chords, too. Choose your camp..?

It's quite rare for an analogy to hold true in every respect, being a comparison of similar features, but not implying they be identical. How many bristles are need to define a toothbrush as a toothbrush before it gets so bald as to no longer count as one..? Hmm... 

Yes - selectively picking the ones which say three, but excluding those which say two; that's the point I was hinting at.

Of course, few analogies do hold true under all permutations, but my point (again) was that saying a shape has to have at least 3 sides to be two-dimensional may be true, but is as relevant to music as the theory of dinosaurs which states that they are very thin at one end, very fat in the middle, and very thin at the other end.

 

[Cato]

As aside, how many notes are in a dyad and how many dyads make a chord?

1 or 1.5?

Edited January 15, 2018 by Cato

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Dad3353]

3 hours ago, prowla said:

Yes - selectively picking the ones which say three, but excluding those which say two; that's the point I was hinting at...

Yes, I agree; there are sources that take a different approach. I don't hold with their views, that's all. We are all free to choose who to give credence to; I've chosen the '3' camp. 

3 hours ago, prowla said:

...Of course, few analogies do hold true under all permutations, but my point (again) was that saying a shape has to have at least 3 sides to be two-dimensional may be true, but is as relevant to music as the theory of dinosaurs which states that they are very thin at one end, very fat in the middle, and very thin at the other end.

My 'analogy' was only relevant to the subject in the sense that definitions are, by definition, defining something. If a triangle (for instance...) is 'defined' as having three sides, then that's the end of the matter, and questioning 'why' is somewhat futile. In the same way, if one 'defines' chords as having 3 or more notes (as I do, along with others...), then that bears little discussion. It's a definition, not an explanation. It's true, I could have chosen any number of 'defining' examples; I chose a triangle. 

[prowla]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Yes, I agree; there are sources that take a different approach. I don't hold with their views, that's all. We are all free to choose who to give credence to; I've chosen the '3' camp. 

My 'analogy' was only relevant to the subject in the sense that definitions are, by definition, defining something. If a triangle (for instance...) is 'defined' as having three sides, then that's the end of the matter, and questioning 'why' is somewhat futile. In the same way, if one 'defines' chords as having 3 or more notes (as I do, along with others...), then that bears little discussion. It's a definition, not an explanation. It's true, I could have chosen any number of 'defining' examples; I chose a triangle. 

Sure, you can choose your camp; I think I'm in the two legs good, three legs bad one.

Your example of the triangle was based on the premise that a chord is defined as at least 3 notes (a triad), and was thereby self-fulfilling; in contrast, mine of two eyes says you can see how far away something is without having to actually walk there.

Interestingly, further regarding the triangle and maths, the mathematical definition of a chord is a line which passes through two points...

Going back to written definitons of a musical chord, I can see that the number "three" in definitions of a chord is often preceded by the qualifier "usually", thereby hinting that it is not a hard rule.

Is there anything else in chord definitions, other than the number of notes which define its characteristics?

For instance, if you were to take any definition and replace the words "two" or "three" with "multiple", what else does it say about what makes a chord? eg. Does it have to uniquely identify the key you are playing in?

[SpondonBassed]

19 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Why is so important that a chord has at least 3 notes?

 

I don't think it's that important.  I just don't want to kid myself that I am achieving more than I actually have done.

If you think of chord playing as a progression from playing single note lines in my explorative journey through playing bass for pleasure (my own mainly) it might help explain my position.  For me making choices for single notes to underpin a tune without changing its direction is, say, step one.  Step two is to successfully use double stops.  I take the example from the Smiths' Heaven knows I'm Miserable Now.  In the middle eight specifically.

It's interesting because the book Legendary Bass Guitar Songs separates the bass part for that bit into two lines claiming that there was an overdub for the doubled-up notes.  I always thought that was a load of tentacles.  It's dead easy to play it in one pass by double-stopping.  The effect in the song is massive.  I don't think of it as playing chords however.  I am definitely getting closer to doing so though.

See?  I am trying to feel the music rather than clutter my conscious mind with theory.  I am progressing (very slowly on my own) and one day I may decide to throw a chord into something here and there for that BIG effect.  As I am not looking to play anything other than bass guitar however, chords aren't high on my list of priorities.

Cosmically speaking... none of it is actually important.

[SpondonBassed]

18 hours ago, Spoombung said:

Yep this it. What notes are the other goons in your band making?

 

If it meant I had a band to play with I'd employ goons right from the off!  Even goons don't want to play with me because I am an old man.

[SpondonBassed]

15 hours ago, lowdown said:

Name that chord.....

 

 

 

?

[SpondonBassed]

19 hours ago, FinnDave said:

THIS is the one that convinces me. Written terms I can understand, visualise, and agree with. You have won the thread, sir!

If it was someone else's topic I'd be happy to accept but since it is my own I have to step back and look for other prize winners.  I've set my barrow down and chosen to think of a chord having three notes minimum, two of which I can contribute with my double-stops.  It'll get me by until I learn more.  I am happy to call root and fifth combinations power chords since it seems to be part of the pop culture from the eighties.  Inwardly I wink to myself and tell my ego to get over itself.

Thanks for the support however.  I'd have thought more abstract opinions might have been presented just to make it less of a theory lecture.

Edited January 15, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, prowla said:

Sure, you can choose your camp; I think I'm in the two legs good, three legs bad one. ...

It works for some...                               

 

 

 

I'll get my coat.

 

[Hellzero]

11 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

Well there's a mature, considered response. Nice going.

Would this be a bad time to tell you that I have a degree in Mathematics and Philosophy? That I have made some study of this kind of material over a number of years? And that I have written articles on the history of musical scales in Ancient Greece (that made fairly extensive use of harmonic theory) on this very forum?

Fact is, I actually know a few things about this subject myself. You have spent the last few pages being arrogant, patronising and dismissive. I understand what you are saying - have done from the outset actually - and I disagree with you.

I'm out.

So we have to show our degrees ? And next step will be IQ, I guess. Wow, coming from a philosopher, that's the most patronising answer ever, but as you have the two necessary degrees, may I ask you something that will involve the use the both of them ?

Can you prove and demonstrate us using mathematics and philosophy that "1 + 1 = 2"  ?

[Brook_fan]

Guys, if I play a D on my bass, then add an F#, I am playing a D chord.  If defines the harmony at that point.  It has the root and the third, which is all you need to define a chord really.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[BigRedX]

I still haven't seen an answer to my question about why it is so important that a chord is defined as either a major or minor.

[Hellzero]

The answer is in your question !?!

[Brook_fan]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

But it doesn't define it, does it? A perfect fifth would 'define' it as a D major. A sharpened fifth would define it as a D augmented. I could even play an unlikely flattened fifth in that situation, as the D and F# give no definition to the state of the fifth.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself in this thread, but these are all fairly basic bits of music theory and the way chords are structured. By all means ignore it, but to pretend it's not there isn't doing anyone's development any favours.

 

Ask any jazz pianist what notes are important to ‘define’ a D Major chord, and she/ he will say the root and third.  The important notes to define are D Augmented are root, 3rd and fifth, because you have introduced another element to the chord (the augmented bit).  A G7flat5#9 would have as its important notes: B (the major third), F (the 7th), Flat (the flat 5) and Bb/A# (the #9th bit).  Notice you can even leave out the root in this case.  This enables the pianist to even substitute this chord for another.  So, I go back to my original comment, for a D Major chord, the only two notes needed to define it as D, are D and F#.  Thus, a chord can contain as few as two notes.

 

Robbie

Edited January 15, 2018 by Brook_fan

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

...

@SpondonBassed, I'm glad you are enjoying learning and developing on the bass, and nothing said on here will have made you achieve any more or less. It sounds like you're making great progress, so keep at it! You're obviously getting to the point where your playing and understanding would benefit from a little more theory, so I would recommend getting a book or finding a site to learn the age-old rules of engagement. It's not going to be as much fun as browsing Ebay for cool basses, or daydreaming about an SVT with a pair of 8x10's, but the knowledge you gain will help you to expand into the use of chords with a firm understanding of what you are doing, why, how it relates to the music, and the profound effect it will have on how melodies will work over the notes you play. And when you want to break those rules, you will be able to do it because you want to, not through fumbling in the musical dark. More over, armed with the correct knowledge your progress will likely accelerate, as you will have all the tools you need to achieve what you want in the most direct way. And frankly, looking a detail up in your trusty tome will be a lot more efficient than asking us lot!

Although aimed at 6-stringers, The Guitarists Handbook has some very accessible sections on all areas of theory, and while a bit outdated on the gear front, it does have some nice pics of basses in there too!

I appreciate you taking the time to make those recommendations.

With all due respect though, you wouldn't be the first to make them in my fifty five years and God willing, you wont be the last.

I am only doing this for fun.  You're wanting me to go into an area that is most certainly not fun.  As a youth I had a start in music which was pretty much ruined by our emigration from Britain in the early seventies.  There were also other factors including a drama teacher who put me in an embarrassing situation that it took me decades to get over.  More recently I had a very similar experience and twice in a lifetime for that sort of event is too much.  I stay away from teachers as a general rule.

Suffice it to say that I hate schools as a consequence of being misunderstood from a very early age.  I've been to too many and they all have their own version of what is 'right'.  Because I have a decent IQ (ignoring the wee-weeing contest elsewhere in this topic), teachers patronised me more than was good for my personal development.

I don't need teachers around me now and I have lots of books for reference along with the massive resource that is the 'net.  As for 'asking us lot'... isn't that one heck of a good reason to be a member here?  I mean, to be able to ask in a place where lots of people do it for real and get credited in terms of music sales or publicity rather than academic qualification has to be better than looking through fusty old books or yappy young things on YT - hasn't it?

At the end of it all, I don't get out much and this is a good social outlet.

If it isn't fun why would I want it as a hobby?  It was only a simple question.  Thanks anyway.  I hope I don't sound unappreciative of your suggestions for further study but this is something of a magical mystery tour for me and I think an itinerary would spoil it somewhat.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[PaulWarning]

40 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

I appreciate you taking the time to make those recommendations.

With all due respect though, you wouldn't be the first to make them in my fifty five years and God willing, you wont be the last.

I am only doing this for fun.  You're wanting me to go into an area that is most certainly not fun.  As a youth I had a start in music which was pretty much ruined by our emigration from Britain in the early seventies.  There were also other factors including a drama teacher who put me in an embarrassing situation that it took me decades to get over.  More recently I had a very similar experience and twice in a lifetime for that sort of event is too much.  I stay away from teachers as a general rule.

Suffice it to say that I hate schools as a consequence of being misunderstood from a very early age.  I've been to too many and they all have their own version of what is 'right'.  Because I have a decent IQ (ignoring the wee-weeing contest elsewhere in this topic), teachers patronised me more than was good for my personal development.

I don't need teachers around me now and I have lots of books for reference along with the massive resource that is the 'net.  As for 'asking us lot'... isn't that one heck of a good reason to be a member here?  I mean, to be able to ask in a place where lots of people do it for real and get credited in terms of music sales or publicity rather than academic qualification has to be better than looking through fusty old books or yappy young things on YT - hasn't it?

At the end of it all, I don't get out much and this is a good social outlet.

If it isn't fun why would I want it as a hobby?  It was only a simple question.  Thanks anyway.  I hope I don't sound unappreciative of your suggestions for further study but this is something of a magical mystery tour for me and I think an itinerary would spoil it somewhat.

sounds like you wished you'd never asked , I know what you mean, millions of people out there have been put off learning an instrument because they've been told they need loads of theory when all they want is to play a tune, I've 'taught' a couple of people to play guitar by tuning it to open E and just barring the top 2 or 3 strings so they could get a tune out it, they both went on to learn 'properly'

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

...If pure fun is the primary goal then, as the gambling adverts say, when the fun stops- stop. I'm not suggesting that you leave Basschat either! I also spend time here for relaxation, socialising, and learning. My point was more that this thread proves that the information here is a mix of fact, vague versions of fact, opinion, and strangely, emotion. As boring as those books certainly are, what they generally will be is correct and unfiltered. If you want to know for certain, unfortunately, that is where the real info is.

Anyway, I wish you all the best in your progress, and may it bring you many hours of joy! The headache this thread is giving me suggests the fun may have stopped here, and I can only repeat myself from here on out so I might unfollow it, but hope this has all been helpful to you in some way!

Happy playing, Andy

Cheers Andy.  It is the forum that keeps on giving.

[bassace]

147 replies so far. Come on guys, I’m sure we can get this pointless discussion up to 150 by the end of the day.

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

sounds like you wished you'd never asked , I know what you mean, millions of people out there have been put off learning an instrument because they've been told they need loads of theory when all they want is to play a tune, I've 'taught' a couple of people to play guitar by tuning it to open E and just barring the top 2 or 3 strings so they could get a tune out it, they both went on to learn 'properly'

Not at all.  I'm getting the stuff that doesn't make it to print.  Thanks one and all.

One of the consequences of that incident when I was nine is that I have a real problem with authority figures.   I have that for life.  Often it is the case that someone well meaning will try to assume the upper hand when it is not asked for.  In those cases I tend to I react poorly once that indefinable button has been pushed.

No-one has, as yet, crossed that line with me here.  I don't think it's likely someone would anyway.  It's a fault of mine.  I can blame no-one else for it.  It's how I got through all the different schools I ended up in.  I'd have been beaten to a pulp by bullies had I been any other way.

[SpondonBassed]

30 minutes ago, bassace said:

147 replies so far. Come on guys, I’m sure we can get this pointless discussion up to 150 by the end of the day.

Oh?