12 and 8 String Basses

[Delberthot]

I've gigged 8 and 12 string basses and the 12vers are much, much bigger sounding than only an extra 4 strings would suggest.

However, despite this, I'd still rather have a 4 and some pedals to emulate a rough approximation of a 12 string any day of the week 

[Al Krow]

23 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Bas, your 4 octave Pedals will get you 80% there, Plus which one of your bases would have to go out the window, rules are rules?!

Nope an octave pedal by itself will struggle to get there. You would need polyphonic tracking and zero latency and given that octave up / polyphonic are only available on digital not analog pedals, latency is going to be an issue (or a very expensive pedal, if it indeed exists?).

An 8 string deals with the latency point on an octave up.

2 identical octave strings played together is pretty close in sound to what a chorus pedal is doing.

So 8 plus chorus is going to get you pretty close to a 12 (well as far as any audience is going to notice).

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, Delberthot said:

I've gigged 8 and 12 string basses and the 12vers are much, much bigger sounding than only an extra 4 strings would suggest.

However, despite this, I'd still rather have a 4 and some pedals to emulate a rough approximation of a 12 string any day of the week 

I think you've captured both sides of the discussion in a nutshell. Cheers!

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow there are always different viewpoints buddy, will people in the audience know the difference between your delicious Nordstrand pick ups vs a set from ironstone, a UK company which for the price (another Bas fave) are very good and price point alone stand up very well.

 @Delberthot has a more than valued opinion and you can pick from it what you like, BUT consistently whether it’s this gentleman or @Wolverinebass and his point everyone says it has its own big sound, which cannot be exactly replicated,  thus if you want it, you want it and take the rough with the smooth.

if it was all about rough approximation Bas you wouldn’t be flipping pedals like a BBQ chef flips burgers to get the sound you want, you would just stuck with your zoom.

 

[Bluewine]

1 hour ago, SpondonBassed said:

Why have I suddenly got images of chimps, pianos, stairs and a nice cup of tea in my mind?

I am impressed by the engineering behind bass twelves.  That's as far as it goes for me I'm afraid.  Five is more than enough for me to cope with.  I'd imagine your damping skills have to be spot-on at all times.

Isn't the 12 really more like a 4 than a 5 or 6 string. It's still EADG. I look at it as a 4 .

I'd really like to own a White Falcon 12 one day.

Blue

Blue

[NancyJohnson]

3 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

Isn't the 12 really more like a 4 than a 5 or 6 string. It's still EADG. I look at it as a 4 .

I'd really like to own a White Falcon 12 one day.

Blue

Blue

Well, in a sense it's more like a 4, but only from the perspective of the tuning, but it is, however, no more a 4 than a Rickenbacker 360/12 is a 6 string.

[Woodinblack]

9 hours ago, Al Krow said:

2) Price for neck through: 

https://www.andertons.co.uk/schecter-stilletto-8-string-bass-in-honey-satin

Quite a lot of love for Schecters on BC you'll find (including from yourself I believe from a recent thread of yours?) - I'd certainly be happy to have that brand in my arsenal.

How much is your Hamer 12?

 

I would consider one of these too:

https://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/product/esp_ltd_b-208fm_stblk_bass_guitar/

 

never played one, but I have played the 205!

[Wolverinebass]

5 hours ago, Bluewine said:

You can doubt it, however I'm maintaing my position. I can get pretty close to Tom's sound.

Blue

I await the sound samples of your 12 string emulation. If only any of us had known that the rich, textural properties of a niche instrument could be replicated with 3 stompboxes...

[Wolverinebass]

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I would consider one of these too:

https://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/product/esp_ltd_b-208fm_stblk_bass_guitar/

 

never played one, but I have played the 205!

I know someone who had one of them. It's a 4 saddle bridge. It won't stay in tune above the 7th fret.

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, Bluewine said:

Isn't the 12 really more like a 4 than a 5 or 6 string. It's still EADG. I look at it as a 4 .

I'd really like to own a White Falcon 12 one day.

Blue

Blue

Yes.  The strings being grouped by threes.

I struggle to stop two adjacent strings on the same fret with some of my fretting fingers.  It would take a bit of effort to span three at a time with my narrow fingertips every time I fret a note.  I'd hate to imagine what it would be like if I really liked playing chords*.  It seems like a tool for a specific job to me.  Given a particular goal that would require a lot of pedal tweakage to achieve otherwise a twelve starts to make sense.  I wouldn't think it is a sound that I'd want throughout the whole of a set.

*I am assuming that a twelve is not best suited to chord playing bassists, generally speaking, although it seems to work for guitarists who have six groups of two...

Edited January 16, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[Al Krow]

8 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I would consider one of these too:

https://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/product/esp_ltd_b-208fm_stblk_bass_guitar/

never played one, but I have played the 205!

Oooh that does look good and under £600 new for an 8 string! ESP's tend to get mixed reviews on BC, not sure why?  What were your thoughts on the 205?

5 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

I know someone who had one of them. It's a 4 saddle bridge. It won't stay in tune above the 7th fret.

Hah! I think I've got my answer to the fist question on mixed reviews!

Ok the Schecter Stiletto 8 remains as front runner in my books for an 8 then - although as it's nearly £400 dearer than the ESP,  you'd kinda hope it would be better!

[Woodinblack]

27 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Oooh that does look good and under £600 new for an 8 string! ESP's tend to get mixed reviews on BC, not sure why?  What were your thoughts on the 205?

It was ok. A bit chunky for my liking but that was more a style issue than a fault. It played fine.

i played the fretless too, that was also ok

 

27 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Hah! I think I've got my answer to the fist question on mixed reviews!

 

Seems odd that by design it wouldn’t intonate ? 

Would have to try one to find out

 

[Wolverinebass]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Seems odd that by design it wouldn’t intonate ? 

Would have to try one to find out

 

As you go higher up the neck the octave string goes out of tune. My mate tried to record with his band at my studio. He ended up having to use my 8 string as his was really straying out of pitch and sounded awful. Try it out. After the 7th fret it'll start to sound a bit out.

[Wolverinebass]

@Al Krow you won't be able to turn an 8 into a 12 by using pedals. Generally an 8 is more middly sounding. The 12 is much fuller. An 8 is marginally easier to play, but I had my 12 set up with such a low action it's almost insane. If you can't bend the strings, fair enough, but it's not that much of a leap of you work at it. Once you do when you switch back to playing a normal 4 string it'll feel like a toy.

You're welcome to pop round to mine to try them if you want.

[Al Krow]

Which 8 string are you playing?

In terms of getting close to 12 string, won't it depend on the make / model of the 8 string and the chorus pedal we're using? And my test was would an audience notice (rather than we the bass player who, to be fair, are a MILLION times more discerning about our gear)?

I'd love to pop round (I think you're just a 30 min drive away) and try them out! Cheers - I'll PM you to sort out a date. We can maybe bitc*h about how ugly we think Barefaced cabs are, over a beer, at the same time - lol! 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Al Krow

[SpondonBassed]

2 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

I know someone who had one of them. It's a 4 saddle bridge. It won't stay in tune above the 7th fret.

That's odd.

The 'net images I saw look like there isn't any staggering between the heavy and light gauges at each individual saddle.  I wonder if the maker supplies own-brand strings that do intonate correctly?  Otherwise, I can't see how they'd get away with it.

[Bluewine]

3 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

I await the sound samples of your 12 string emulation. If only any of us had known that the rich, textural properties of a niche instrument could be replicated with 3 stompboxes...

Remember I said " close" which is relative.

Blue

[Wolverinebass]

55 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

That's odd.

The 'net images I saw look like there isn't any staggering between the heavy and light gauges at each individual saddle.  I wonder if the maker supplies own-brand strings that do intonate correctly?  Otherwise, I can't see how they'd get away with it.

It was factory strings. If you played 5th fret and below you were laughing. Above the 7th things started to go awry and by the time you reached 12th fret the octave string was almost a half step out.

[Muzz]

Spoiler

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I've had a couple of 8s and a 12, and the 12 was definitely more of a handful to play: big, heavy and with a wiiiide neck. It was a Dean Rhapsody, and it had 8 saddles (so did the Dean 8), so intonation was...good. Not perfect, but then that jangle and slight dissonance is part of the sound IMO.

I also had a Washburn B20-8 back in the day, and that was terrible: a very odd triangular neck, a propensity to snap strings because of some very extreme break angles with the '4 tuners at each end' hoohah, and the worst neck dive of any bass I've ever picked up...and I like Thunderbirds... 

I keep yearning for another 8 or 12, but to be honest, in our band setup, the B3 Pitch Shift adding an octave up, and some chorus gets it close enough once everyone else is playing. There's some latency, but I can live with that - it's certainly not something I even register when I'm on stage.

I'd be inclined to buy the ESP and just replace the bridge (Schaller do a very good 8-string bridge)...in fact, I just might... 

EDIT: I might add that the build quality of the Deans was very good: there's a lot of tension in a 12 string neck, and this was solid as a rock...

EDIT 2...ummm, ignore the Spoiler things: I was mis-clicking there... 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Muzz

[Wolverinebass]

26 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

Remember I said " close" which is relative.

Blue

So, just discounting the octave strings part of the tone then? Clearly, immensely close and dare I say it, no doubt indistinguishable.

[tauzero]

I've got a Dean Edge 10 which I've just been using for a couple of recordings. Must compare the sound with the sound of a similar 12 sometime (so as to reduce the differences from different electronics, pickups, etc), and also work out if I actually use all 5 courses most of the time. Mind you, for practicality, I'm going to just use an octave-up effect to get a similarish sound to the 10-string live - at least until I can get a 10-string headless Sei.

[Al Krow]

24 minutes ago, Muzz said:

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I keep yearning for another 8 or 12, but to be honest, in our band setup, the B3 Pitch Shift adding an octave up, and some chorus gets it close enough once everyone else is playing. There's some latency, but I can live with that - it's certainly not something I even register when I'm on stage.

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Muzz - cheers that is exactly the point I've been making: if you can get close to a 12 string with a 4 string + B3 octave up + chorus (with a bit of latency) then IMHO you get even closer to a 12 string with an 8 string + chorus (and no latency). It just makes sense to me anyway. I accept you're not going to get the 'fulness' of a 12 string, but I would trade that for ease of playability as I don't have Cuzzy Brown Bear's vast and formidable fingers. Right I've chucked my grenade and discovered a couple of excellent possible 8 strings still being currently made in the process.

29 minutes ago, Muzz said:

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I'd be inclined to buy the ESP and just replace the bridge (Schaller do a very good 8-string bridge)...in fact, I just might... 

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That sounds like a really good option. How much to get the Schaller fitted (I'm guessing £150 parts and labour?); so a decent and nicely set up ESP 8 for £730 or if you're pushing the boat out a bit further a Schecter Stiletto NT for £970; and then there is always the Spector Legend 8 for £600 as a third option...  

 

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow BazzyBear if you wanted to know about 8 strings I could have told you all of them without you having to throw your dud grenades that don’t go off, but you wouldn’t have believed me, you never do......😢

BTW in your case IMHO the H stands for horrific.....🤣

[Al Krow]

Your spelling hasn't improved has it mate? It's spelt 'honorific'.

And you could have told me ALL about 8 strings based on how exactly how many hours playing experience of them?

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Al Krow

[NancyJohnson]

2 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

I wonder if the maker supplies own-brand strings that do intonate correctly?

If manufacturers made self intonating strings, every bridge on any stringed instrument would pretty much become redundant from an adjustment perspective.  There's probably some long and drawn out article online somewhere covering the science behind string gauge, string length, action, tuning and the effects thereon, but just trust us, for a 12 (or 8) stringed bass you really should have a bridge with eight saddles, one for each of the fundamentals, another to carry the octave strings.