Learn To Read Music

[Dad3353]

5 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

The circle of fifths is your friend. In addition to listing the key signatures in order of increasing sharps/flats depending on the direction, you'll notice that this is the same order (albeit displaced) the sharps/flats occur in. It has other uses too, and once some of the elements of music theory "click into place" it can be applied to many other areas.

It was a pretty daft idea in the first pace, keeping the 'C' scale as a reference, and ignoring the black notes. Once they became 'allowed' (by the church establishment, I believe..?), the notes should all have been given individual , non-ambiguous, names, so would span 11 notes (A-L...) instead of 7 (A-G...) presently. There are so many instruments that don't have a distinction (guitars, basses, slide trombones, chromatic accordions and harmonicas, plus all the violin family and more besides...). One would need to keep keys as such, for harmonic reasons, but not use sharps, flats or naturals any more, just the unambiguous note name. Too late now, I realise, but it was a daft idea, and a missed trick, I say.

[paul_c2]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

It was a pretty daft idea in the first pace, keeping the 'C' scale as a reference, and ignoring the black notes. Once they became 'allowed' (by the church establishment, I believe..?), the notes should all have been given individual , non-ambiguous, names, so would span 11 notes (A-L...) instead of 7 (A-G...) presently. There are so many instruments that don't have a distinction (guitars, basses, slide trombones, chromatic accordions and harmonicas, plus all the violin family and more besides...). One would need to keep keys as such, for harmonic reasons, but not use sharps, flats or naturals any more, just the unambiguous note name. Too late now, I realise, but it was a daft idea, and a missed trick, I say.

It actually makes complete sense - and your idea of a chromatic notation is pretty daft - for music which is based on some kind of diatonic scale or reasonably closely related to it.

[NickA]

Some weird modern classical music doesn't have bar lines ... difficult to play.  Without bar lines I think you're going to get lost; it's kind of a sync pulse that lets you get back in time every few beats.  In any kind of band everyone is playing different length notes (unless it's folk music!) so you need that sync to stay together, and if you have a conductor then they need to convey that sync to everyone to keep them in time.  Yes, you could all count 1,1,1,1,1,1  but once you are out then you will never get back in again  ..   It works.

As for the five line stave... I feel your pain.  But if you are playing a non fretted instrument then, in fact, C# and Dflat (for instance) are different notes (though it is debatable which one is sharper than the other under any given circumstance) so you would need a very wide stave indeed and it would be hard to follow.

Of course it was never designed, it just evolved so it isn't perfect - and like the keyboard I'm typing on it could be better.

CLEFS meanwhile are a pain as learning different instruments one tends to automate the process of "that dot means that finger on that string", so whilst I can read the treble clef on an alto recorder, the bass recorder (which is written for in the bass clef) proved difficult; although the fingering to get a particular note is the the same as a treble recorder, the dots are in different places for the same note and your subconcious brain sends your fingers to the wrong place.  Having taught myself to read the treble clef on the bass guitar, I now have trouble switching back to the bass clef!!!!  If you are really musical then I guess the transfer from dot to note to finger position becomes fast enough that you can read any clef on any instrument and even transpose on the fly!!!!  My brother (a pro) can do it,  I ( a rank amateur) can hardly do it at all.  My dad (also a pro) took up the bass viol as a retirement project, but was defeated by the uneven tuning and because the music is written in the ALTO clef.

No one said it was easy .. but it will keep senility at bay.

[Dad3353]

They laughed at Galileo, too. 

[Bilbo]

3 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Wrong way round, surely? C = no sharps or flats, g = one sharp, F = one flat and so on.

This is about the ACTUAL flat notes as opposed to the key signature. If there is one flat (F major),  the flat is a B. If there are two flats (Bb major),  the flats are B and E and so on.

 

I learned that 4 sharps is E major years ago but struggled to remember which four sharps whilst reading. 

[project_c]

12 hours ago, scalpy said:

I know this sounds pretentious but I maintain the standard musical notation system is one of the pinnacles of human invention. Off to cook some quinoa now....

Doesn't sound pretentious at all, it's a great invention. I wish I had more time to dedicate to reading, whenever I practice sight reading I see massive improvements in my playing and I also think it's good for cognitive function in general.

I'm off to steam some kale and put on some spandex to get ready for yoga. 

[DJpullchord]

8 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

The circle of fifths is your friend. In addition to listing the key signatures in order of increasing sharps/flats depending on the direction, you'll notice that this is the same order (albeit displaced) the sharps/flats occur in. It has other uses too, and once some of the elements of music theory "click into place" it can be applied to many other areas.

 

I need to make more effort.

I can read music but it’s like doing soduku. 

What I did find many years ago, was that if I learnt a piece by reading it, I was almost reliant on the score to play. Where if I learnt a piece by ear, my musical memory would be betterrer.

 

[Bilbo]

I think we can have an unrealistic expectation of ourselves where reading and learning are concerned. Classical soloists often work on individual pieces for months to perfect them. We think a couple of run through should be enough.

[tinyd]

10 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

The circle of fifths is your friend. In addition to listing the key signatures in order of increasing sharps/flats depending on the direction, you'll notice that this is the same order (albeit displaced) the sharps/flats occur in. It has other uses too, and once some of the elements of music theory "click into place" it can be applied to many other areas.

Good point. To elaborate a bit more, there's a  'system' that I read somewhere that helps me remember which notes become sharpened / flattened using the circle of fifths.

To move round the flats, first flatten the 7th degree of the current scale and then move down a fifth (or up a fourth). e.g. starting in C, first flatten the B and then move down a fifth to F, so F major has one flat, Bb. Going again, flatten the 7th degree of F major (the E natural) and then move down a fifth to Bb. So Bb has two flats - Bb and Eb. 

To move in the 'sharps' direction, move down a fourth (or up a fifth) and then sharpen the 7th degree of the scale. So starting again at C, move down a fourth to G, and then sharpen the F to F# - so G major has one sharp, the F#. The next move is again down a fourth to D and then sharpen the 7th (the C) to C#. So D major has F# and C#. 

This might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a lot less confusing when you actually do it on the bass since the movement is always up or down strings.

[ead]

I'm about to start learning the piano at age 57.  I can read the treble clef as I used to play the violin to a decent standard but I have a block for the bass side which needs sorting.  Plus I think it will improve my bass playing.

[Rocker]

17 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Reading music is just a convenient and effective shorthand for conveying ideas. 

The belief that it inhibits creativity is just ignorant. 

Plus, it’s really quite simple to teach yourself.

Not  so in my experience! A parallel is that everyone 'knows ' Ohms Law. When I started my electricial apprenticeship I too thought I knew Ohms Law. But when a teacher on a block release course explained it to us, then I understood Ohms Law. I find it difficult to learn, really learn, something by reading it. Which is why I will be starting music lessons very soon. Just to be able to read the dots...

[lowdown]

Bar Lines = Musical punctuation, not to mention repeat bars having their place. 

Anyone who regularly sight reads (shows etc), will tell you the importance of making things easy on the eye. The current system, although not perfect, does just that.

I certainly wouldn't want to be confronted with no bar lines! Getting lost in a difficult part/chart/score with no reference points, would be very hard to recover from under pressure (I should imagine).

http://www.dummies.com/art-center/music/piano/musical-punctuation-bar-lines-and-measures/

 

The jump from reading notes to fluent sight reading is just a matter of practise. Eventually, it does become second nature.

In the business of music, reading notation has plenty of other advantages, other than just reading your particular Instrument part.

Arranging, orchestrating, transcribing, musical supervisor, musical/orchestral assistant, musical librarian, converting Midi events into band parts/notation for school orchestras, teaching. engraving...etc. etc...

All ways of earning money and jobs in their own right.

[burno70]

Since learning piano and especially taking my my first grade exam my reading skills have taken great leaps forward. I love the way you can see the whole tune as opposed to the part which applies to the bass player's line. It certainly helps improve your understanding of song structure and how melodies and harmonies are built upon chord structures etc. 

[petebassist]

I think it's a great investment in time if you mean to perform, and I find it fun , completely absorbing, a bit like sitting down to enjoy reading a book. 

Also, you never know when you might need it. A few months back I arranged to try out/audition with a jazz orchestra, and I told them beforehand that I could read basic bass clef (i.e. not up the dusty end), if very slowly, but I mainly played from memory having first learnt the parts. No problem they said, just come along and do what you can. When I did turn up, someone plonked a music score on my lap and we were off. As the bass lines were relatively simple, I just about managed to keep up note wise, and also remember the notation symbols, having read a book years ago about how to read scores.

It could have been a car-crash two hours, but I managed to leave at the end with at least some dignity...

 

[fretmeister]

7 minutes ago, petebassist said:

I think it's a great investment in time if you mean to perform, and I find it fun , completely absorbing, a bit like sitting down to enjoy reading a book. 

Also, you never know when you might need it. A few months back I arranged to try out/audition with a jazz orchestra, and I told them beforehand that I could read basic bass clef (i.e. not up the dusty end), if very slowly, but I mainly played from memory having first learnt the parts. No problem they said, just come along and do what you can. When I did turn up, someone plonked a music score on my lap and we were off. As the bass lines were relatively simple, I just about managed to keep up note wise, and also remember the notation symbols, having read a book years ago about how to read scores.

It could have been a car-crash two hours, but I managed to leave at the end with at least some dignity...

 

That happens to me every Saturday!!

[Mcgiver69]

In my humble opinion, if you want to learn to read music for bass purposes and haven't been making much progress then I would recommend looking into Takadimi which is an Indian rhythm method which teaches notes grouped by their rhythmic value.

 

[lowdown]

The Louis Bellson book 'Modern Reading Text In 4/4'  is also very good. Although you need to understand note rhythms beforehand (But still good for practise).

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by lowdown

[OmeDunk]

22 hours ago, fretmeister said:

I'm learning to read. I'm doing the Jeff Berlin course and a few other things.

What content is in the Jeff Berlin course?

[Dan Dare]

21 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

OK, OK; keep the pulse, or syncopation or whatever, keep the bar lines, but play the notes at their written length, that's all. Why do they have to slavishly fit into this artificial frame of bar lines..? What, musically, would be the difference if a dotted semibreve was written instead of a semibreve tied to a minim..? That's the key factor for me, not the lines as such. It's the tied notes I don't see a reason for.

Bar lines are punctuation. They tell you where the strong/on beat should happen. Tied notes are used when a note should be held beyond the end of a bar. What's wrong with that?

[Dad3353]

1 minute ago, Dan Dare said:

Bar lines are punctuation. They tell you where the strong/on beat should happen. Tied notes are used when a note should be held beyond the end of a bar. What's wrong with that?

OK, keep the bar lines. Why, though, do we need to tie notes over 'em..? Give the notes their real duration, and play that. I don't see why bars, if they're giving the pulse, as you say, must only contain a rigid, bastard, count of notes. What is the fundamental reason for not having a note length going beyond the bar line..? What purpose does that practice serve..?

[paul_c2]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

OK, keep the bar lines. Why, though, do we need to tie notes over 'em..? Give the notes their real duration, and play that. I don't see why bars, if they're giving the pulse, as you say, must only contain a rigid, bastard, count of notes. What is the fundamental reason for not having a note length going beyond the bar line..? What purpose does that practice serve..?

Its already been explained to you. A bar of music contains a fixed (according to the time signature) number of notes. If it didn't, and you simply put extra notes into one bar because they're tied over to the next bar, it would no longer serve its purpose as a bar. By ensuring the bar contains the correct duration of notes (and/or rests) it makes it much easier to follow and play.

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

Its already been explained to you...

Yes, OK; I'll let it rest. I understand that if it's always been done that way, everyone that does it that way sees it as fine. If it was to be re-invented, though, there are, in my small-brained opinion, other ways of doing it which have advantages. It's not that I don't understand bars (and music notation in general...), it's just that there are so many ways of improving stuff that can't be done, or, apparently, even considered, because it's already 'out there'. There are 'ergonomic' keyboards that are much better, in many respects, than the standard one on which I'm typing here; the heritage of the typewriter is difficult to cast off, purely for its ubiquity. Similarly for notation, I reckon. Never mind, I'll just continue to read what's written and slowly shake my head from time to time. One day the world will thank me for sowing these small seeds. One day... 

[lojo]

I can't read , wish I could but never did learn

The one thing I struggle with when playing as the only non reader at rehearsals is when they say "let's from bar 88" me "err you mean the end of the 2nd chorus" 

Apart from that , I can learn the songs from recordings as well as any readers (who often come under prepared as they rely on reading)

Please don't take this as negative comment against learning to read , Id advise anyone starting out to do it 

[ead]

11 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

OK, keep the bar lines. Why, though, do we need to tie notes over 'em..? Give the notes their real duration, and play that. I don't see why bars, if they're giving the pulse, as you say, must only contain a rigid, bastard, count of notes. What is the fundamental reason for not having a note length going beyond the bar line..? What purpose does that practice serve..?

For example if you have two counter melodies going on.  I think to really appreciate why it's a worldwide standard just watch a conductor directing an orchestra.  Without the framework of the music it would make the task much harder, and if you have one set of musicians doing one thing with their long notes and another part of the orchestra doing something else which part dictates where the bar ends?

I agree that many things can be improved but I do think this particular aspect has stood the test of time for the last 3 or 4 centuries at least!

[leftybassman392]

My two pennorth: anybody with aspirations to be a professional musician in any capacity really ought to learn to read the dots if they possibly can. It's the language that musicians use to communicate with each other, and not being able to follow a part will put you at a distinct disadvantage in many work situations. Even for the more casual musician it's rarely a bad idea in and of itself.

That said, it's not the be-all and end-all of being a musician (as some have claimed on these forums in the past). It's still perfectly possible to be good on your instrument, take your place in a working band or simply play for your own pleasure (which, after all, is what many members of this forum are doing if we're honest) without any real knowledge of notation. Tablature is a perfectly useable format that by the way has a long and distinguished history in it's own right (and not just for guitar and bass).

In my time as a tutor, I would say that less than 20% of my students had any real need or desire to read notation. Maybe it says something about me and/or my students, but IME ramming it down the throat of somebody who has neither the need nor the inclination for it generally proves counterproductive. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by leftybassman392
Clarification