Gigging without a car

[wateroftyne]

8 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

So, when I turned up 15 minutes early after learning 9 songs in 2 evenings that counts as turning up and playing with more than a minimum of fuss? Just clarifying that.

It's unreasonable. I have never demanded a lift off anyone. Nor would I. I always pay my way if it has to be done and if it's not possible I look as to how I can fix the situation myself. If someone's going to be driving past my house with literally a 5 minute detour and I'm paying for them to do it, doesn't that make sense? If it was a massive detour I wouldn't ask. Fair is fair.

I don't begrudge or envy anyone with a car. I certainly wouldn't take advantage of anyone who has one either. I just won't drive again after having a massive accident. Maybe I should have therapy if my musical career is over due to it.

No, I'm not saying any of that at all.

[Wolverinebass]

Just now, wateroftyne said:

No, I'm not saying any of that at all.

I know what you meant and I made my point probably a bit too harshly. What I should have said was "you can still be reliable with public transport." 😊 

That situation was very disappointing. Let's face it, we've all been rejected from bands due to ability (not enough or too much), style, image or whatever, but when you nail the audition and then get thrown out for "non-musical" reasons like not having a car when no mention of how much of an essential criteria that this allegedly was it really grates.

[FinnDave]

12 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

So, when I turned up 15 minutes early after learning 9 songs in 2 evenings that counts as turning up and playing with more than a minimum of fuss? Just clarifying that.

The problem you're facing, unfortunately, is that a lot of bands have had experience of a non-driving member who is considerably less dedicated and reliable than you are, and like most of us, operate on the 'once bitten, twice shy' approach, which may well result in them rejecting an ideal musician because they have had times when an excellent player is simply not there because of transport issues. The ideal situation is to play locally and be able to simply carry your gear there, though if you need an amp, that won't be easy.

I have personal experience of two bands with non-driving drummers, one split fairly quickly as the drummer often faced to turn up at rehearsals, and the other is teetering on the brink of collapse. 

Having a car doesn't mean you can always get there on time, either - traffic, breakdowns, accidents...but it is usually the best way to minimise chances of missing a rehearsal or a gig. 

[steantval]

48 minutes ago, Twanger said:

To clear up a terminology point - by "hobby" band, I mean one which costs you money rather than makes you money. It really is just for fun.

That’s probably the 80% of us I was talking about, if it was just for the money, most of us would probably not be gigging.

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, wateroftyne said:

Being able to turn up and play with minimum fuss counts for a hell of a lot.

Because the hobbyist will be being ferried about by another hobbyist who is potentially now finding it less of a hobby.

I can testify to that.

It makes me feel rotten for not driving but I'd rather not become another digit in the statistical analysis of road traffic accidents in Britain.  Having said that, I could well get splattered across the next zebra crossing while running to catch a bus with a bass on me back and a combo hanging out of one arm!

Life.  Cuh!

I'm entirely with you on the turning up with minimum fuss point.  That has nothing to do with whether you own your own transport though if you aren't mooching off of your band mates.

[discreet]

1 hour ago, Wolverinebass said:

I just won't drive again after having a massive accident. Maybe I should have therapy if my musical career is over due to it.

Depends if you really think your musical career is over due to not driving. if not, then that's OK. If you do think it's over due to not driving maybe you could look at it again. I've had accidents, but never a massive accident. I don't know if that would put me off driving forever or not. If I'd had a massive accident that was my fault, it could well put me off, I suppose. But I rely so much on my car, even then I'm not sure that I wouldn't give it another go...

[Wolverinebass]

2 hours ago, discreet said:

Depends if you really think your musical career is over due to not driving. if not, then that's OK. If you do think it's over due to not driving maybe you could look at it again. I've had accidents, but never a massive accident. I don't know if that would put me off driving forever or not. If I'd had a massive accident that was my fault, it could well put me off, I suppose. But I rely so much on my car, even then I'm not sure that I wouldn't give it another go...

I'm not entirely sure if I made that comment facetiously or not. Both iterations seem accurate. 

Still, driving gives me the fear after my experience. On a logical level, I'm sure I'd be fine, but I still have nagging doubts. A substantial amount of therapy awaits methinks.....

[discreet]

39 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

A substantial amount of therapy awaits methinks.....

You could probably save yourself a fortune by just getting in a car and driving it. Accidents are statistics, there's no logical reason why you should have another. But then, I'm no psychiatrist. Or statistician.

[FinnDave]

46 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

I'm not entirely sure if I made that comment facetiously or not. Both iterations seem accurate. 

Still, driving gives me the fear after my experience. On a logical level, I'm sure I'd be fine, but I still have nagging doubts. A substantial amount of therapy awaits methinks.....

I was involved in a a fairly unpleasant motorcycle accident (for which the other driver was wholly responsible, and admitted so in court) which left me very twitchy about driving when I was able to do so again. I had a course of CBT which I was very sceptical about, but which turned out to be very beneficial.

[SpondonBassed]

2 hours ago, FinnDave said:

I was involved in a a fairly unpleasant motorcycle accident (for which the other driver was wholly responsible, and admitted so in court) which left me very twitchy about driving when I was able to do so again. I had a course of CBT which I was very sceptical about, but which turned out to be very beneficial.

Since this has been mentioned, I have had my share of 'bike accidents.  Fortunately none were serious, the two worst ones involving cuts and fractures only.

I read in the nineties that when the calculations were done using the accident statistics from insurance claims for that year it worked out that the average rider would have an accident once every four years.  I bought my first car in my forties and a couple of years later, I sold my last 'bike and gave up my boots and helmet for good.  I looked back at my 25 years on 'bikes in all weathers and my accident record fitted exactly that average.

I never had a problem getting back onto two wheels after but then, I had knowledge of what I might have done better to avoid the accident.  I was an Blue badged member of the I.A.M. for my last few years on two wheels.  Had there been an inexplicable accident it might have affected me more.

In addition to a couple of health issues, I have slowed with age and I would not be capable of the same reactions on a 'bike as those I had.  Same with a car.  It is enough of a loss to my dignity to say that I had to give up my car.  You can say what you like against my decision but it won't match the indignity I already feel.  I choose to put it behind me.  I'm now enjoying life from a different perspective than from the narrow view you get from behind the steering wheel.

If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Edited January 23, 2018 by SpondonBassed

[FinnDave]

6 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Or fetch the gin

I managed nearly 40 years on 2 wheels before having my one and only accident, but it was serious enough for me to draw a line under my biking days from that point on. 

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, FinnDave said:

Or fetch the gin

I managed nearly 40 years on 2 wheels before having my one and only accident, but it was serious enough for me to draw a line under my biking days from that point on. 

I'll drink to that.  You did well.

[discreet]

2 hours ago, FinnDave said:

I managed nearly 40 years on 2 wheels before having my one and only accident, but it was serious enough for me to draw a line under my biking days from that point on. 

I had similar luck on two wheels. It was the appearance of young master discreet that put a stop to it, not wanting him to lose his old dad before time. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by discreet

[mcnach]

10 hours ago, Twanger said:

To clear up a terminology point - by "hobby" band, I mean one which costs you money rather than makes you money. It really is just for fun.

 

Every band I'm in makes me money... just not very much on the whole, so I have a day job. I'd still call these bands a 'hobby' really. We do it for fun, the money is a very welcome bonus which helps offset the many hassles encountered at many gigs, especially when they involve a substantial travel and lots of waiting around etc... 

[steantval]

2 hours ago, FinnDave said:

Or fetch the gin

I managed nearly 40 years on 2 wheels before having my one and only accident, but it was serious enough for me to draw a line under my biking days from that point on. 

44 years for me on motorcycles and still riding and racing, big crash in 1998, new replacement bike and me fixed, back on it again a month later.

My two big passions are music and motorcycling and I will keep playing and riding as long as I can.👍👍👍

[mcnach]

10 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

See, I'm not buying this at all. By extension, this argument suggests that having a car trumps musical aptitude, production skills, enthusiasm, availability and whatever other skills (marketing or whatever) you might have or be able to bring to the table. Surely this can't really be the case across the board?

If someone lived in the wrong direction I'd never make issue of it and just sort it out myself or make a judgement call about if it was feasible to join in longevity. No problem. They were being unreasonable.

I accept that cover bands carry pa's and whatnot, but originals are a totally different kettle of fish for the most part. 

 

No, having a car doesn't trump all the other things, but having the ability to independently get to any gig anywhere could be an important consideration especially if the band members are scattered over a wide area. You may be responsible and willing to do what it takes to make it, but if they don't know you well enough, to them is just another musician promising things... and let's face it, 'musicians' at the level we're talking about include a lot of unreliable people. Perhaps they already suffered and decided to make sure it won't happen again.

If there's a lot of travelling involved, and one member is *never* going to be able to drive... that may not be very attractive in some bands.

Sometimes, after certain gigs, some people may want to stay, others leave, others go elsewhere... knowing from the start that someone HAS to look after a given member every single time, may be enough to want to look for another player who can provide the same skill, enthusiasm, etc... but also have their own transport. 

A band I was playing in, we were 8 members, and only two did not drive, with a third who had limited access to a car. It was easy to figure out travel. However, one of the non drivers in particular started to bring his girlfriend to every single gig. Several times it meant bringing one extra car just because of having an extra person... that reduces the income from the gig for everybody, as well as the extra hassle for the person who ends up driving...

I think non-drivers often don't fully appreciate what it means for those who drive you around, in terms of time, energy, cost (there's a lot more to cars than petrol)... The time I damaged my exhaust driving onto a festival site because I was carrying an amplifier for somebody else (I would have left my car somewhere else otherwise), I was not very happy. I was ultimately responsible, but guess who never runs risks like that? You got it. In many cases for many bands it does not matter, but on some bands travelling may be a bit more critical and if you cannot help with your share of driving, you may not look as a suitable candidate. It really depends on the band.

I wouldn't be bitter about not being chosen by that band you auditioned for. They clearly know what they wanted, and unfortunately you weren't quite it, for non-musical reason. Hey, others don't make it because of their age, or hair, or... 

It's tough out there.

[mcnach]

10 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

So, when I turned up 15 minutes early after learning 9 songs in 2 evenings that counts as turning up and playing with more than a minimum of fuss? Just clarifying that.

It's unreasonable. I have never demanded a lift off anyone. Nor would I. I always pay my way if it has to be done and if it's not possible I look as to how I can fix the situation myself. If someone's going to be driving past my house with literally a 5 minute detour and I'm paying for them to do it, doesn't that make sense? If it was a massive detour I wouldn't ask. Fair is fair.

I don't begrudge or envy anyone with a car. I certainly wouldn't take advantage of anyone who has one either. I just won't drive again after having a massive accident. Maybe I should have therapy if my musical career is over due to it.

 

It's unreasonable... to YOU. But not them, clearly.

I know where you're coming from, 'though. You sound like a person who will be at the required place at the required time, regardless how you have to get there. But for a band who doesn't know you well, that attitude is an unknown quantity. It's a risk. Words are just words. I know people that I know I can absolutely rely on, and will never let me down. But I also know people who are lovely, yet I wonder how they managed to tie their laces in the morning... and the first time you meet both types, they seem almost identical and they all talk the talk.

Some people may be more trusting than others. Some people may have been burnt before and avoid certain situations at all costs... 

It's nothing to do with fairness really. 

[peteb]

I have just been asked to dep for a few months by a band while their bass player undergoes medical treatment. They all live in Wakefield / Leeds while I live in Bradford, so not far away but a pain on public transport. The gigs are all over Yorkshire and Lancashire – not bad money but there’s no way I could get back from any of them on public transport, even though none are more than a 50 minute drive away. I would have to take a bass rig anyway so I would need a car, though I suppose it might be just about possible if I lived in London near a tube station and all of the gigs were an easy walk from a tube station.

The thing is that they never asked if I had a car when they approached me. It was assumed that somebody who gigs like me would have suitable transport, just as I assume that they will all have cars to get themselves and backline, drums and PA to gigs.

There is no way that someone without a car would be able to cover that gig. Nothing to do with ability, enthusiasm or fairness – just simple logistics…

[Wolverinebass]

22 minutes ago, peteb said:

I have just been asked to dep for a few months by a band while their bass player undergoes medical treatment. They all live in Wakefield / Leeds while I live in Bradford, so not far away but a pain on public transport. The gigs are all over Yorkshire and Lancashire – not bad money but there’s no way I could get back from any of them on public transport, even though none are more than a 50 minute drive away. I would have to take a bass rig anyway so I would need a car, though I suppose it might be just about possible if I lived in London near a tube station and all of the gigs were an easy walk from a tube station.

The thing is that they never asked if I had a car when they approached me. It was assumed that somebody who gigs like me would have suitable transport, just as I assume that they will all have cars to get themselves and backline, drums and PA to gigs.

There is no way that someone without a car would be able to cover that gig. Nothing to do with ability, enthusiasm or fairness – just simple logistics…

It's assumed that you have a car because you live in a place which sounds like you'd need one. That's less true for London, but it depends what kind of gig it is doesn't it? Quite correctly it's logistics as you say.

I need a car!! 😉

[peteb]

Just now, Wolverinebass said:

It's assumed that you have a car because you live in a place which sounds like you'd need one. That's less true for London, but it depends what kind of gig it is doesn't it? Quite correctly it's logistics as you say.

I need a car!! 😉

Bear in mind that I live not too far from the centre of a major northern city, not exactly in the middle of nowhere! But if you are going to play the whole gig circuit then you need a car. 

Having said that, I have played in plenty of bands (mainly a while ago) where all the gear was stored in a central location and went to the gig in a van, so you just had to get to the rehearsal place and get a lift in the van. A car wasn't so essential then as you just needed a taxi to the rehearsal room. 

As you say, it all depends on the gig but if you want to be available for the majority of work out there you need your own transport. 

[SpondonBassed]

9 hours ago, discreet said:

I had similar luck on two wheels. It was the appearance of young master discreet that put a stop to it, not wanting him to lose his old dad before time. 

Hollywood scriptwriters are already in talks about producing the sequel:

Son of Discreet - The Gaggening!
Be very afraid.  In Bass(chat)... no-one can hear you scream.

[SpondonBassed]

9 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

Every band I'm in makes me money... just not very much on the whole, so I have a day job. I'd still call these bands a 'hobby' really. We do it for fun, the money is a very welcome bonus which helps offset the many hassles encountered at many gigs, especially when they involve a substantial travel and lots of waiting around etc... 

There's no reason a hobby can't be lucrative.

I think it becomes a job when you start accepting bookings that you would not have looked for but that you can't afford to turn down because you have acquired a good reputation and you'd like to preserve it.  It's similar with people who have their dream job.  They are obliged to attend (that makes it a job) but they don't think of what they do as work because they would be doing the same stuff in their spare time.

[SpondonBassed]

9 hours ago, steantval said:

44 years for me on motorcycles and still riding and racing, big crash in 1998, new replacement bike and me fixed, back on it again a month later.

My two big passions are music and motorcycling and I will keep playing and riding as long as I can.👍👍👍

Good on you!

I had the same attitude.  My parents told me I was going through a phase and that I'd soon meet a girl and settle down with a nice house and a car ready for the babies that I would, no doubt, be bringing into the world with my lovely wife.

Whoops.

My 'phase' lasted for twenty five years and I loved all of it.  I am not married.  There are no children bearing my genes that I am aware of.  I tried car ownership for about ten years and hated most of it.  I have a nice house and I am settled.

Looking to the future.  Despite appearances, I'd actually like to see public access autonomous vehicles.  It's the transition from privately owned vehicles to mass use of publicly owned vehicles that I'd like to avoid.

[SpondonBassed]

9 hours ago, mcnach said:

...It's nothing to do with fairness really...

True.