Eh?

[Dan Dare]

This is crazy - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42776454. Leaving aside the obvious jokes about the fact that you would be better off not being able to hear what was happening at a Little Mix gig, how would having someone signing the banal lyrics of typical chart tripe increase anyone's enjoyment (can you even sign drivel such as "ooh yeah baby", etc?) when they couldn't hear the actual music? Note that I am not arguing against providing signing/assistance for hearing impaired people in as many situations as is practical or possible. However, music (I use the term loosely in this case) requires the ability to hear in some way. The lyrics are only a part of it. I know it's tough that those who cannot hear are unlikely to be able to enjoy music fully, but that's just the way life is. Discuss.

[fretmeister]

Beat can be felt as well as heard.

 

[dmccombe7]

The guidelines are where practical so not sure its a practical situation but when i hear about deaf people enjoying music i always think of the very talented Evelyn Glennie.

I guess its just a different form of enjoying music to a hearing person.

With regards live performances or concerts i would reckon that if requested by a fan then no reason why a VID screen with lyrics can't be provide at side or back of the stage for deaf people to read the lyrics. 

The singers use front of stage lyric monitors at most major concerts anyways 

Dave 

Edited January 24, 2018 by dmccombe7

[SteveK]

Surely, there's got to be more to this story than is being reported? On the surface, it appears that the mother in question is a bit of a chancer.

[Bolo]

A song is poetry in a rythm with a melody. If you can enjoy two out of three that's not that bad.

Note that sign language contains more information than just gestures for letters. 

Lastly, many 'deaf' people are not deaf. Many still hear certain frequencies, but have a hearing loss of say 80 dB or more.

[Doctor J]

I think Little Mix are being a little hard done by here. This, on the other hand...

 

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/deaf-people-turn-up-to-see-queens-of-the-stone-age/

[dmccombe7]

18 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

I think Little Mix are being a little hard done by here. This, on the other hand...

 

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/deaf-people-turn-up-to-see-queens-of-the-stone-age/

To be honest that's a bit stupid of the band and not expect someone to take offence.

 

[Doctor J]

Or, perhaps, they saw it coming from a very long, long way away?

[T-Bay]

Read the full story and the organisers did a lot, sorted the main event, free upgrade, offer of free carer tickets, access to private toilet facilities etc. As a passionate supporter of disability rights I find this a bit frustrating. Unless there is something being missed by all the media, which is possible, then it seems to be someone looking for an angle to moan at. I truly hope that isn’t the case as it’s been a hard slog to get rights for the disabled and it only takes a few freeloading idiots to spoil it for everyone.

[Len_derby]

This is a very interesting case and could set an important precedent.

If the courts find in favour of the family the implications for promoters of live music could be massive.

[MoonBassAlpha]

They said on the radio that the signing was only unavailable for the support acts.

[stingrayPete1977]

I heard a lady talking about how they do it on radio 4 earlier,  she says is takes a fully qualified signer around 30-40 hours to prepare for a show, just the main act the other problem being quite often the support act often isn't even announced until just before the show. Any genuine fans will know the words to the songs so maybe just a screen notifying the tracks would be good, this woman is just a Richard, She's not even into the band. 

[NancyJohnson]

When I read this story earlier today, I did kind of think, 'Where does this correctness end?'

What about a blind person who buys tickets for an art exhibition or a film?  

Yes, it's tragic this woman is stone deaf, but surely you makes your choices, deaf, blind, disabled, whatever, don't you?  I'm all for equality...I'm struggling for the words here, but if I was deaf, I wouldn't have bought tickets, let alone be inclined or even know how to instruct a solicitor to take action.

Going back to my 'Where will it end?' comment, where does it end?  Bands playing in pubs?  

[dmccombe7]

I don't see it being too difficult to show the lyrics on stage screens either at side or behind the act. They are running them for many acts on wedge screens these days. It can't be that difficult to project that onto large screens.

Dave

[gs_triumph]

I thought about posting this this morning but thought it wouldnt be received well. 

Glad it's not just me who thinks its a bit PC gone mad.  I agree the promoter did make a fair offer to allow them to bring their own interpreter but the law states they have to make the experience as close to the full experience an 'able' person would receive. I guess an interpreter can get the emotion / rhythm across better than written words. 

Where does it go for smaller acts/venues? 

Will you need to find somewhere in the budget for a signer next time you play the dog & duck? 

 

[Bolo]

What's PC got to do with it? 

Unbelievable. 

[lurksalot]

I understand  that a number of shows actually do have the words signed , but on a designated show on the tour/run . This allows a choice for those that require it . 

Demanding for 1 particular show because you want to make a point is a touch rich, would a printed lyric sheet not suffice ?

[Chiliwailer]

 

@Dan Dare Many young people are into Little Mix and all that comes with it, so why should a deaf person not be able to enjoy the experience of seeing them, seeing the show, being part of the crowd etc. It's the difference between saying "I was there, I loved it" or not. I'm sure you'd agree that anyone should be able to enjoy an experience, regardless of how you think music should be enjoyed, or whatever disability they have.

@NancyJohnson Loads of deaf people go to gigs. Many blind people / vision impaired enjoy films too using audio descriptions, so they can either go with mates or enjoy the experience and sound, Odeon do it. For some people being disabled means that they are generally less engaged as they have less opportunities than non-disabled people, so enjoying a film that way, or going to a gig, is no less a meaningful experience that it is for those who are non-disabled - it's just different. 

The medical disability model says that the disability itself disables people, the social model says that restricted access is what really disables people - as do people's lack of empathy. It's sad that some people just don't get it, but then that's why disability campaigners have to fight so hard.

[NancyJohnson]

7 hours ago, Bolo said:

What's PC got to do with it? 

Unbelievable. 

I'd assume the use of PC in gs_triumph's comment is largely rhetorical.  Don't get your panties in a twist.

Look, as a country, we've moved a long way in the last 40 years towards living in a non-discriminating society, it's been like living inside a social engineering experiment at times, but legislation aside, surely there has to be a line in the sand.  Would this woman attend an orchestral/instrumental event?

Here, we seem to be focusing on a one or two people amongst an audience of thousands.  We do seem to focus and accommodate a tiny percentage of people.  I do wonder whether anyone who attended had their gig-going experience ruined by having someone signing in front of them?  Would the promoter be accommodating these punters?  No, probably not.  More importantly, would anyone with good ears actually have the nerve to actually put in a complaint?

 

[stingrayPete1977]

9 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

When I read this story earlier today, I did kind of think, 'Where does this correctness end?'

What about a blind person who buys tickets for an art exhibition or a film?  

Yes, it's tragic this woman is stone deaf, but surely you makes your choices, deaf, blind, disabled, whatever, don't you?  I'm all for equality...I'm struggling for the words here, but if I was deaf, I wouldn't have bought tickets, let alone be inclined or even know how to instruct a solicitor to take action.

Going back to my 'Where will it end?' comment, where does it end?  Bands playing in pubs?  

She was there to accompany her daughter hence my comment that she isn't actually a fan and doesn't know the words. 

[fretmeister]

Just now, NancyJohnson said:

I'd assume the use of PC in gs_triumph's comment is largely rhetorical.  Don't get your panties in a twist.

Look, as a country, we've moved a long way in the last 40 years towards living in a non-discriminating society, it's been like living inside a social engineering experiment at times, but legislation aside, surely there has to be a line in the sand.  Would this woman attend an orchestral/instrumental event?

Here, we seem to be focusing on a one or two people amongst an audience of thousands.  We do seem to focus and accommodate a tiny percentage of people.  I do wonder whether anyone who attended had their gig-going experience ruined by having someone signing in front of them?  Would the promoter be accommodating these punters?  No, probably not.  More importantly, would anyone with good ears actually have the nerve to actually put in a complaint?

 

Focusing on a small, thus minority, group of people is exactly what Anti discrimination legislation is designed to do. If we didn’t there wouldn’t be wheelchair viewing areas or disabled bogs. This isn’t a “deafness at a gig” issue, this is just a “deafness” issue. We don’t get to get to decide whether deaf people should be allowed to try and enjoy something, even if a hearing person thinks it’s useless.

The legislation also references changes that are practical. So for those worrying about open nights or 50 punter pubs having to do this - they won’t. But a big arena show with well resources promotors will have to. 

 

As for signing ruining the show for hearing customers, what do you suggest? A separate night for the deaf? Not enough local deaf people in a particular location so do it in a smaller venue with a less impressive stage show at a higher ticket price? That really treating deaf people the same. Swap deaf people for wheelchair users and see how repugnant that would be. Raised platform at Download for wheelchair users ruins an able bodied persons view? So what?

 

I’m loving the value judgments based on the quality of Little Mix lyrics. Never gave a thought about a deaf 8 year old wanting to enjoy the same things as their friends to feel part of the gang? Are you really judging whether the request for a signer is valid based on whether YOU like the artist? Really? I’m betting everyone on here has more than 1 embarrassing CD in their music collection. 

 

I fully support the woman taking this action. It won’t affect the grass roots at all and she is not a chancer. All she wants is for deaf people to be treated the same. Good for her.

[itsmedunc]

9 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

When I read this story earlier today, I did kind of think, 'Where does this correctness end?'

What about a blind person who buys tickets for an art exhibition or a film?  

Yes, it's tragic this woman is stone deaf, but surely you makes your choices, deaf, blind, disabled, whatever, don't you?  I'm all for equality...I'm struggling for the words here, but if I was deaf, I wouldn't have bought tickets, let alone be inclined or even know how to instruct a solicitor to take action.

Going back to my 'Where will it end?' comment, where does it end?  Bands playing in pubs?  

When I worked in learning support at a local college, I was sent to work with a 16 year old girl with an assessed mental age of 8. She had a lot of issues but mainly her learning capacity and that she had been blind from birth. Of course the college helped her choose the right course - Film Studies and Media? 

I had to sit there with her in class and verbally inform her what was going on onscreen. She didn't understand or care, all the other students were miffed as they couldn't hear the film for me waffling on. However, I found she loved music and the boy bands of the time. We ended up spending most of class time walking through the local shopping centre visiting all the music shops, over and over again. Academically, it didn't make any sense at all but she enjoyed herself and she was a pleasure to work with.

That was about 18 years ago and so it seems "correctness" is still alive and kicking!

[uk_lefty]

It looks like the promoters did what they could, offering the free carer tickets was a nice gesture in my view, then providing an actual interpreter is a massive gesture albeit forced by the legal threat. Do they provide a carer to help people with mobility issues in or out, or just a free carer ticket, etc? For the mum to then moan about no interpreter for the support acts is a bit too much for me. It's not like it was a festival where every act is a knockout, the support would have been some never-will-be act or x factor rejects I bet. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by uk_lefty

[NancyJohnson]

Oh, and let me throw something else into the mix here.  My mother's has been profoundly deaf for about 20-25 years, so I really don't need people grinding away at me about Equality Laws and Disability rights, OK?

[skidder652003]

I think it might be the fact that she's kicking off about no support for the support acts that might be grating with a few on here. Not knowing how that would work with time availability for the interpreter etc means I don't really have an opinion, but having seen some truly awful support acts for big headliners, its got me feeling a bit annoyed but I can't really explain why!