Substitute

[PaulWarning]

4 minutes ago, Mickyk said:

Blimey  i thought i was on facebook for a minute then,i take none of you are sex pistols fans,The lyrics should remain how they were written and if some  snowflake is offended then so be it,some people are taught to feel offended nowadays but be the lefty schooling kids get now get on with life and stop trying to change history the Lyrics are what they are so what.

so what you boring little nasty pasty  Wonder what the profanity filter will do with that?

edit, now I know 

Edited January 25, 2018 by PaulWarning

[Woodinblack]

Used to do it in my previous group. I don't really like the song much but never had a problem with the words, in fact never thought about the words. We do money for nothing in the current group, we don't change the words to that either. The only words we change are rude ones when we are playing our Sunday afternoon gigs in the garden of a pub as loads of people bring their kids to that one.

I suppose maybe if we did Olivers Army..

Edited January 25, 2018 by Woodinblack

[steantval]

8 minutes ago, Mickyk said:

Blimey  i thought i was on facebook for a minute then,i take none of you are sex pistols fans,The lyrics should remain how they were written and if some  snowflake is offended then so be it,some people are taught to feel offended nowadays but be the lefty schooling kids get now get on with life and stop trying to change history the Lyrics are what they are so what.

Totally agree that songs should remain as they were originally written.

[mikel]

Whats wrong with your dad being black?  All he was saying is, he is not entirely what he seems. Get over it. Bloody PC brigade.

[acidbass]

Racism

noun

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Nope - nothing in that lyric remotely suggests any of the above.

[stingrayPete1977]

3 hours ago, Cato said:

I'd feel faintly ridiculous if I had to sing it,  but there's far more cringeworthy songs from from that era.

Take Brown Sugar, an up beat song featuring a slaver having sex (I don't think it's either confirmed or even necessarily implied that the sex is consensual) with one of his slaves. And that's before you get to 'just like a young girl should' lyric. 

That definitely has the potential to upset.

Mick Jagger might  me able to get away with singing it, I doubt I could.

Our lady singer vetoed this song, I had never listened to the words and I had to agree with her.

[mikel]

3 hours ago, Cato said:

I'd feel faintly ridiculous if I had to sing it,  but there's far more cringeworthy songs from from that era.

Take Brown Sugar, an up beat song featuring a slaver having sex (I don't think it's either confirmed or even necessarily implied that the sex is consensual) with one of his slaves. And that's before you get to 'just like a young girl should' lyric. 

That definitely has the potential to upset.

Mick Jagger might  me able to get away with singing it, I doubt I could.

Slightly over sensitive I think.  I am 65 so most females are young girls to me. Context might be the phrase to use.  Lets ban most old Blues songs and early Rap stuff as its none PC.  They are songs from a moment in time, If you dont like them dont do them.

[lemmywinks]

1 hour ago, Mickyk said:

Blimey  i thought i was on facebook for a minute then,i take none of you are sex pistols fans,The lyrics should remain how they were written and if some  snowflake is offended then so be it,some people are taught to feel offended nowadays but be the lefty schooling kids get now get on with life and stop trying to change history the Lyrics are what they are so what.

You realise everybody else is discussing this casually and you're the one who's overreacted?

I would have a think about that before labelling anyone a snowflake.

[Oopsdabassist]

We have done Substitute for ages, never even knew there was an alternative lyric, we have never had a comment about dodgy lyrics, and will almost certainly carry on as we are, move along now, nothing to see here......

[lemmywinks]

Back to the topic, obviously there's no ill intent in there, even regarding the pattern of the other lyrics (things about him being lesser than they appear) it's more a sign of how he thought he was perceived by others rather than expressing personal opinions. That's my take on it anyway, I'm not really a Who fan but have played the song over the years.

 

Besides, it's not exactly the worst thing Townshend has done is it? We don't play Who songs for entirely different reasons.

[bonzodog]

Great bass line to play though. Especially the solo

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

You and I have heard different versions of where that lyric came from, then. And he doesn't sing that line these days either. Anyroad, we just don't want to end up inadvertently offending anyone with it. I have heard the song for years and never picked up on it being "quoted" from someone or in character. Interesting! 

 

I found this below here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140810054301/http://www.cbsc.ca/english/decisions/2011/110831.php

 

Quote

The National Panel has benefited to a considerable extent from both the suggestions made in the critical mass of e-mails received from the public and the research the CBSC Secretariat has done pursuant to those suggestions.  What has become clear to the National Panel is the dramatic intention of songwriter Mark Knopfler in the creation of “Money for Nothing”.  According to Knopfler, he wrote the lyrics from the point of view of a blue-collar worker watching music videos on a television screen in the midst of his own labours.  Bored with his own work and touched with envy at the riches inuring to the benefit of a singer whose workaday talents led to greater rewards with far less bodily sweat, Knopfler’s character expressed his thoughts in the language the songwriter captured nearly verbatim in the shop in which Knopfler heard them.

Knopfler described the song’s composition process in a 1985 interview with Bill Flanagan, author of the book Written in My Soul: Conversations with Rock’s Great Songwriters (1986):

The lead character in “Money for Nothing” is a guy who works in the hardware department in a television/custom kitchen/refrigerator/microwave appliance store. He’s singing the song. I wrote the song when I was actually in the store. I borrowed a bit of paper and started to write the song down in the store. I wanted to use a lot of the language that the real guy actually used when I heard him, because it was more real. It just went better with the song, it was more muscular. I actually used “little faggot,” but there are a couple of good “motherfuckers” in there. I wanted to do a second version that way but I never had time. I’d still love to be able to do it. Even if just the band had it, because it would be the real version. I mean that is the way people speak. I think people still get the general idea. You can use other words that will suggest the general feel. 

It also has to do with the context in which a song’s received. If we walk into a hardware store and hear someone say, “Look at that nasty person” it means nothing to us, but if you hear it in a pop song …

If you hear it in New York it means nothing. If you’re living in Tallahassee then maybe it’s a different thing. There is no way that I would expect people to receive all that in the spirit in which it was intended. They’d probably think I was just being vulgar.

Fifteen years later, in 2000, after the dissolution of the band, Knopfler appeared on Michael Parkinson’s British talk show, Parkinson.  During that interview, Knopfler once again explained the origin of the lyrics.  The relevant portion of that transcript follows:

M. Parkinson: Tell me about “Money for Nothing”, which is one of the most famous songs you wrote and where that came from.

M. Knopfler:   Well, I was in New York, and I was in a, in a, in a kitchen appliance store, um, ah, there you go, like you are, you know [laughter in the crowd], and it had a window.  There was a kitchen display in the window and there’d be a row of microwaves or, you know, cupboards and things like that, and, at the back of the store, there was a big wall of televisions, all, all tuned to MTV. And, um, there was some bonehead who worked for the store, a great big macho guy with a, you know with a checked shirt on and a cap and a pair of work boots, and he had been delivering stuff at the back and he, so he was watching MTV, and he was saying all these great lines about, you know, “that ain’t working” you know, “that’s the way you do it”, stuff like that, “what’s that Hawaiian noises”, he was saying. So, I just thought it was so classic, that I went and asked for a pen and paper and started writing the lines down, you know?  And then when I started putting it to music, again that whole finger and thumb thing [Mark Knopfler started playing his guitar on stage while sitting next to the host.  The familiar sound of the opening rhythm of “Money for Nothing” can be heard with clapping in the background].

 

 

[JellyKnees]

3 hours ago, Mickyk said:

Blimey  i thought i was on facebook for a minute then,i take none of you are sex pistols fans,The lyrics should remain how they were written and if some  snowflake is offended then so be it,some people are taught to feel offended nowadays but be the lefty schooling kids get now get on with life and stop trying to change history the Lyrics are what they are so what.

Please, not the tedious snowflake cliché, it's so boring. The rest of your post seems to be mostly gibberish.

[MartinB]

Wow, this thread really kicked off!

8 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

But would you be offended if they didn't change the line?

No, I'm not offended by it. It's a song about a fictional character, who, on closer examination of the lyrics, turns out to be a racist. It's mentioned in passing, not central to his persona. As many others have already said, it doesn't sound like The Who meant it to be a statement.

I'd feel differently if there was a racial slur, or "burn down the mosques" or something, but I don't know why. What's special about songs? A book like To Kill A Mockingbird is chock full of spicy racism, but I would never for a moment suggest it should be changed. The power of the spoken word perhaps? Anyway, it was an interesting question and it made me think, so thanks for that.

Not having been a victim of racism, my opinions about this are pretty irrelevant

[ahpook]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the lyrics - as others have said it's a song made up of contrasts. But then I'm not the one who could possibly be offended, so I can only judge somewhat dispassionately.

[itsmedunc]

9 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Doesn`t bother me, pretty sure no-one would think it was a rabid right-wingers theme tune.

 

If they changed the lyrics for the American market, perhaps that could only reflect on the racism in the USA at that time? For the British market, perhaps it didn't matter in the music scene at that time?

Lyrics are a form of literature and lots of classic novels etc contain language that can be deemed inappropriate and scrutinised. However, for some reason they are deemed as a story and hailed as a masterpiece whilst lyrics, that still tell a tale are viewed in a different manner? Makes little sense to me...

[blisters on my fingers]

1 hour ago, itsmedunc said:

If they changed the lyrics for the American market, perhaps that could only reflect on the racism in the USA at that time? For the British market, perhaps it didn't matter in the music scene at that time?

Lyrics are a form of literature and lots of classic novels etc contain language that can be deemed inappropriate and scrutinised. However, for some reason they are deemed as a story and hailed as a masterpiece whilst lyrics, that still tell a tale are viewed in a different manner? Makes little sense to me...

 

[timmo]

In 50 years time, we will be looked at as intolerant. People will always be offended. You have to look at the time and the circumstances before we criticise the previous generation. There were awful things going on, but I would never judge my grandparents.

[timmo]

4 hours ago, JellyKnees said:

Please, not the tedious snowflake cliché, it's so boring. The rest of your post seems to be mostly gibberish.

I think that is gibberish. I really believe that there are snowflakes. I am a bit angry as 2 colleagues nearly got sacked because he would not take instructions. He went to HR to tell them that they weren`t professional as they swore at him. Sure, it is a male dominated area where people get frustrated,  and heated conversations come up and people swear, then we ask what is for dinner after, and forgotten about. This snowflake, which I will use, swore in front of the hearing , which was overseen by a women in HR, with the complainer constantly swearing and using the C word, and said that he would walk out if it ever became busy again. That is a definition of a snowflake. and don`t care if anyone tells me it is a cliche with 3 likes. 

 

[itsmedunc]

8 minutes ago, timmo said:

In 50 years time, we will be looked at as intolerant. People will always be offended. You have to look at the time and the circumstances before we criticise the previous generation. There were awful things going on, but I would never judge my grandparents.

Nor would I. Those folk went through a time of world wars and hell. Unthinkable to most alive today. Thankfully, our generation have been spared that. Perhaps the only generation ever in our recorded history. We are so privileged in many ways.

[lojo]

Song lyrics imo don't need to be PC , Brown Suger , Embarrassment etc all document real things. 

Just as actors can play aweful characters , singers can sing about aweful things and even from the "bad characters" point of view. It doesn't mean they think that way they are just telling a real story. 

There is a danger of taking anything real out of song lyrics , the charts are already like that .

 

[scalpy]

Isn’t the lyric another Who speech impediment thing? You’re meant to hear ‘alright’, or maybe that’s just me. 

[bartelby]

12 hours ago, mikel said:

I am 65 so most females are young girls to me. 

Young women, surely...

[Lozz196]

13 hours ago, Mickyk said:

Blimey  i thought i was on facebook for a minute then,i take none of you are sex pistols fans

The Sex Pistols version is, for me at least, a far better version of the song, and love what Glen Matlock plays, not sure if that was what The Ox played as can`t really make out his basslines too well in it, but GM def on form on their version.

[JellyKnees]

5 hours ago, timmo said:

I think that is gibberish. I really believe that there are snowflakes. I am a bit angry as 2 colleagues nearly got sacked because he would not take instructions. He went to HR to tell them that they weren`t professional as they swore at him. Sure, it is a male dominated area where people get frustrated,  and heated conversations come up and people swear, then we ask what is for dinner after, and forgotten about. This snowflake, which I will use, swore in front of the hearing , which was overseen by a women in HR, with the complainer constantly swearing and using the C word, and said that he would walk out if it ever became busy again. That is a definition of a snowflake. and don`t care if anyone tells me it is a cliche with 3 likes. 

 

Swearing at people in work isn't professional though, irrespective of what kind of environment you are working in. You certainly wouldn't get away with it in my workplace. Sounds like this person you choose to label a snowflake stood up to some typical alpha male bs macho behaviour, and you don't like it. Good.