High Sensitivity Small footprint

[Quilly]

Hi Folks

I have a lovely 100W Ashdown CTM-100 all tube head, but due to storage and transport constraints I need something small that is sensitive enough to squeeze as mush volume from its as possible. I just don't think 100W is enough grunt to drive a 300W cab that's rated at 97db /1W / 1M. Im addicted to tubes but dont fancy lugging around a 36kg SVT around. The CTM is the ideal size for me...Id just like it to have a bit more clean headspace through a smaller package....Am I looking for a Unicorn cabinet? I'm after a cab of size 210 / 115 or 112. Any recommendations are would be really appreciated.

[CameronJ]

I’m fairly certain it’s only a matter of time before someone recommends Barefaced.

[FinnDave]

3 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I’m fairly certain it’s only a matter of time before someone recommends Barefaced.

I think you just did!

[Bigwan]

Two10. 

[Quilly]

I was just looking them already today incl Glockenklang

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, CameronJ said:

I’m fairly certain it’s only a matter of time before someone recommends Barefaced.

I'm sure they will, but ill advisedly. The OP wants a cab that's both small and efficient. That's possible, but only if you toss the third component of Hoffman's Iron Law, which is low frequency extension. Barefaced has a decided advantage over most cabs in that the long xmax drivers they use allow them to go low and loud, but that loudness is realized by their being able to take a lot of power, not via higher sensitivity. With only 100 watts if the OP wants to go both low and loud then the cab must be large. Of the 210/112/115 options the highest sensitivity will come from a 210. The brand doesn't matter so much as the size, the smaller the box the less low end it will have.

Quote

I just don't think 100W is enough grunt to drive a 300W cab that's rated at 97db /1W / 1M

The thermal rating of a cab has no relationship with how much power it can actually make use of, or how much power it requires to give a desired result. As to cabs rated at higher than 97dB/watt, beware of specsmanship. For instance, any claim for a single driver cab at more than 98dB/watt is probably false. Claims for more than 101dB from multiple drivers are probably false. Eden, and now DNS, has long claimed 106dB/watt from a 410. How do they get such a high rating? By lying. Caveat emptor.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Quilly]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I'm sure they will, but ill advisedly. The OP wants a cab that's both small and efficient. That's possible, but only if you toss the third component of Hoffman's Iron Law, which is low frequency extension. Barefaced has a decided advantage over most cabs in that the long xmax drivers they use allow them to go low and loud, but that loudness is realized by their being able to take a lot of power, not via higher sensitivity. With only 100 watts if the OP wants to go both low and loud then the cab must be large. Of the 210/112/115 options the highest sensitivity will come from a 210. The brand doesn't matter so much as the size, the smaller the box the less low end it will have.

The thermal rating of a cab has no relationship with how much power it can actually make use of, or how much power it requires to give a desired result. As to cabs rated at higher than 97dB/watt, beware of specsmanship. For instance, any claim for a single driver cab at more than 98dB/watt is probably false. Claims for more than 101dB from multiple drivers are probably false. Eden, and now DNS, has long claimed 106dB/watt from a 410. How do they get such a high rating? By lying. Caveat emptor.

 

HI Bill thanks for your insights. I am currently using a 2*10 8ohm which I am quite happy with otherwise. If I were to get a second 2x10 and daisy chain the 2. Would this solve my issue? Another question. My head had a 2 / 4 and 8 ohm output (one of each). I think If I daisy chain the 8 ohm cabs and use the 4 ohm output I'll have matched the impedance?   

With regards to low end. As long as I can have a fairly decent punch for small size gigs I'll be happy. I not a 5 string player.

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Quilly
update

[chris_b]

I don't know what 210 cab you have but a second would enhance your sound and volume nicely. IMO 2 always sound better than 1. You can daisy chain 2 8 ohm cabs an your amp will be happy to run at 4 ohms.

It's a different discussion if you have space constraints and/or want a 1 cab solution.

Edited February 7, 2018 by chris_b

[Quilly]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

I don't know what 210 cab you have but a second would enhance your sound and volume nicely. IMO 2 always sound better than 1. You can daisy chain 2 8 ohm cabs an your amp will be happy to run at 4 ohms.

It's a different discussion if you have space constraints and/or want a 1 cab solution.

Hi Chris, its a Genz Benz focus cab ceramic. Its a low budget cab but it sounds great and has never let me down. I'm looking a Markbass Traveler 210 that looks quite neat.

[artisan]

I recently acquired an Ashdown CTM100 too & really hated my Barefaced Big Baby 2 cab with it.

After trying various cabs I finally settled on a Fender bassman neo 410 & find it brilliant with my CTM100.

I also tried the bassman neo 115 too & that is also an excellent cab,so if a 410 is too large for you the 115 is certainly worth a look (It's fairly compact too)

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If you like what you're getting from your present cab a second will help. You would run at 4 ohms. Adding the second cab will increase sensitivity and put some drivers up higher where you can better hear them. For best results the second cab should  be identical.

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, artisan said:

I recently acquired an Ashdown CTM100 too & really hated my Barefaced Big Baby 2 cab with it.

The Two10/Four10 etc cabs are supposed to behave like sealed cabs, and were designed to work well with valve amps.

[FinnDave]

I saw an Ashdown CTM 30 in PMT today, and remembered this thread. I used valve amps long ago, and remember them fondly. Then I tried to pick up the CTM. It seemed to have been glued to the cab beneath it which in turn had been glued to the floor. I thought of my Rootmaster 800 and Barefaced cabs and moved swiftly on.

[Quilly]

Anyway Ive seen a mark bass 212 that might fit the bill. It's the largest cab I can go with. 

[MoonBassAlpha]

9 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I'm sure they will, but ill advisedly. The OP wants a cab that's both small and efficient. That's possible, but only if you toss the third component of Hoffman's Iron Law, which is low frequency extension. Barefaced has a decided advantage over most cabs in that the long xmax drivers they use allow them to go low and loud, but that loudness is realized by their being able to take a lot of power, not via higher sensitivity. With only 100 watts if the OP wants to go both low and loud then the cab must be large. Of the 210/112/115 options the highest sensitivity will come from a 210. The brand doesn't matter so much as the size, the smaller the box the less low end it will have.

The thermal rating of a cab has no relationship with how much power it can actually make use of, or how much power it requires to give a desired result. As to cabs rated at higher than 97dB/watt, beware of specsmanship. For instance, any claim for a single driver cab at more than 98dB/watt is probably false. Claims for more than 101dB from multiple drivers are probably false. Eden, and now DNS, has long claimed 106dB/watt from a 410. How do they get such a high rating? By lying. Caveat emptor.

What would 4 speakers of 98dB sensitivity yield when combined, theoretically?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Wired parallel two 98dB/w 8 ohm speakers will have 104dB/2.83v voltage sensitivity, but the halved impedance makes 2.83v 2 watts. Their 1 watt sensitivity is 101dB. One way manufacturers fudge the numbers is to quote a 4 ohm speaker at 2.83v sensitivity while making no mention that's 2 watts.

If you could wire four speakers parallel the 1 watt sensitivity would go up to 104dB, but unless your amp is 2 ohm capable you have to wire the two pairs series/parallel. In that case the cab will be 8 ohms, and the 2.83v and 1w sensitivity is 101dB.

Taking the math backwards, if the Eden and DNS 410s had 106dB/w sensitivity then the sensitivity of each driver would be 103dB. No ten inch driver that is useful below 100Hz has 103dB sensitivity.

[MoonBassAlpha]

Thanks Bill, I see how you get there now.

[Quilly]

11 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Wired parallel two 98dB/w 8 ohm speakers will have 104dB/2.83v voltage sensitivity, but the halved impedance makes 2.83v 2 watts. Their 1 watt sensitivity is 101dB. One way manufacturers fudge the numbers is to quote a 4 ohm speaker at 2.83v sensitivity while making no mention that's 2 watts.

If you could wire four speakers parallel the 1 watt sensitivity would go up to 104dB, but unless your amp is 2 ohm capable you have to wire the two pairs series/parallel. In that case the cab will be 8 ohms, and the 2.83v and 1w sensitivity is 101dB.

Taking the math backwards, if the Eden and DNS 410s had 106dB/w sensitivity then the sensitivity of each driver would be 103dB. No ten inch driver that is useful below 100Hz has 103dB sensitivity.

Hi Bill

Do you think I will get more 'bang' out of a 2 * 12 cabinet? The cab I'm looking at is a Mark Bass Ninja 212. Although you've indicated that sensitivity specs are generally suspect it is rated at 103db SPL, which seems pretty high to me. In addition its rates at 800W which means I can comfortably run my 500W terror bass on it also.  

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

You'd get more adding a second identical 2x10. There's only one way to know what the actual sensitivity of a cab is, that's by looking at an SPL chart. AFAIK no manufacturers provide them. There are many excuses why, but there's an old saying about excuses and rectums, and the only thing that they're both good for.

[Phil Starr]

You are bumping into the reasons for big old cabs. No-one really wants to carry an amp that weighs more than a speaker or to pay more for the amp than a Fender Custom Shop. So 100W is where people lose interest. In the good old days we just couldn't afford anything bigger.

Now the efficiency of a speaker depends upon how powerfully the magnet drives the coil, how much you can jam into the gap where the magnetic field is strongest and how light the cone is. Well roughly speaking. It's realtively simple to make a 100dB sensitivity speaker by making a light cone and having a short voice coil. That works really well for guitar but rubbish for bass where the voice coil needs to be long for better excursion. Early guitar speakers couldn't handle much power anyway because the glue used in the coils melted and the coil formers would also distort and sometimes catch fire! The solution was usually just to use lots of speakers. You could use bigger magnets and longer coils for bass but with most of the coil outside the magnet gap they were inefficient until you reached magnet sizes that weighed as much as a minor moon of Jupiter. Doubling your cone area will give you an extra 3db of sensitivity but with a valve amp no extra power, that only applies to solid state amps.

Modern drivers using neodymium allow you to make very powerful magnets that don't weigh too much, and that is the real breakthrough, it becomes technically feasible to build a long throw speaker with acceptable efficiency. Light weight is a secondary consideration really. Even so you aren't going to find sensibly priced speakers with much better than 96db sensitivity for a 12" bass driver. If you want to use a 100W amp you are really bound to either using multiple drivers or lots of PA support. You ought to be able to get to 120dB to be sensible. 100W gives you 20dB more than 1W so you need to look for something better than 100dB/W. 

So your single 96dB/w 12 is going to give 116dB with your 100W amp. Two 12's will give 119dB, not far short of what you 'need' Two 2x10's and you'll be there unless you go for something exotic.