Do you practise in all 30 keys?

[arthurhenry]

I can see what VW is saying here, but surely this is all about how you THINK about the notes you're playing, rather than actual physical playing. If you play through major scales staring on every note, there are only 12, unless you give some of them different names and then play them again!

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by arthurhenry

[ambient]

That's using enharmonics, which is a good way of looking at them. 

[OliverBlackman]

Yeh, but if you're at a jam and the keys player says the tune is in Gb you don't want to have to think "that's the same as F#" because if you learn the scale thinking about both, you won't have to think when playing either.

[seashell]

There are 30 keys?? 

[Norris]

You practice? 

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, seashell said:

There are 30 keys?? 

Not really, for Mortals; it's just a fancy way of complicating things in an esoteric fashion, used by a few dilettantes. One can say that the key of 'C' is also the key of B# (which is true, but not really useful to most folks...). If one goes into double # and double b, we can create 30 keys (so 'C' can also be Dbb, for instance...). There's no great reason to stop there, though; go the whole hog and use triple, quadruple etc # and b, so that 'C' can be Bbbbbbbbbbb. Ignore it; just use 12 keys; many musicians don't even use all of those..!

Just my tuppence-worth, subject to correction, completion and/or contradiction from others. 

[ambient]

41 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Not really, for Mortals; it's just a fancy way of complicating things in an esoteric fashion, used by a few dilettantes. One can say that the key of 'C' is also the key of B# (which is true, but not really useful to most folks...). If one goes into double # and double b, we can create 30 keys (so 'C' can also be Dbb, for instance...). There's no great reason to stop there, though; go the whole hog and use triple, quadruple etc # and b, so that 'C' can be Bbbbbbbbbbb. Ignore it; just use 12 keys; many musicians don't even use all of those..!

Just my tuppence-worth, subject to correction, completion and/or contradiction from others. 

You don't need to get into double flats or anything. Gb and F# major both contain the same notes, but one's written with sharps the other with flats. You can easily come across songs written in either key.

[Dad3353]

4 minutes ago, ambient said:

You don't need to get into double flats or anything. Gb and F# major both contain the same notes, but one's written with sharps the other with flats. You can easily come across songs written in either key.

Indeed, and they're played and sound the same, too.

[Guest]

I think it’s worth remembering why we had flats and sharps in the first place; Bb was NOT the same pitch as A#. Since th advent of equal temperament and the standard pianoforte instrument the distinction between them is less relevant. It is however generally true that horn players prefer flat keys and guitarists sharp keys (lots of open strings available). 30 keys? If you’re really into learning to read and write music whilst thinking of double flats and sharps throughout then more power to you; I’m not!

[ambient]

6 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Indeed, and they're played and sound the same, too.

True, but it's how you consider it. If I see an F# major chord I'm not going to think Gb, it's F#. It's also how you write it, one's written with flats the other with sharps. And it's also contextual thing, one is Gb the other is F#.

Just one of the confusions in music.

[CameronJ]

I was musing on this the other day, actually. As @FDC484950 says above, there was a time when Bb and A# were different pitches. Now that they’ve been amalgamated and represent the same pitch, is there an established standard for when it’s appropriate to say Bb or A#? Or any other equivalent sharp/flat note names? I never know which one to say!

[CameronJ]

Thanks, @ambient. That helps clear things up a little. As a non-reader it hasn’t made things much easier for me though 

[arthurhenry]

4 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I was musing on this the other day, actually. As @FDC484950 says above, there was a time when Bb and A# were different pitches. Now that they’ve been amalgamated and represent the same pitch, is there an established standard for when it’s appropriate to say Bb or A#? Or any other equivalent sharp/flat note names? I never know which one to say!

The notes A-G have to be named in each key. For example in D major: D, E, F#,G, not: D, E, Gb, G, as then you would not have mentioned F.

[arthurhenry]

My questions about the 30 keys idea would be:

Bach wrote two pieces as examples of each key for Well Tempered Klavier. Why are there 48 pieces, not 60?

If an examiner asked me to play a C# major scale, which I did and then, when she asked me to play a different major scale, I played the same thing, but called it Db major, would I get a mark?

[lojo]

No

[Guest]

1 hour ago, arthurhenry said:

My questions about the 30 keys idea would be:

Bach wrote two pieces as examples of each key for Well Tempered Klavier. Why are there 48 pieces, not 60?

If an examiner asked me to play a C# major scale, which I did and then, when she asked me to play a different major scale, I played the same thing, but called it Db major, would I get a mark?

Because there are 24 different sounding keys. Whether it is possible to write up another 6 using enharmonics may be an interesting intellectual challenge (as well as a reading nightmare), but it’s not particularly relevant musically. As @ambient says - F# and Gb are the only ones that usually appear (mostly when talking about cycle/circle of 4ths, as F# has 6 sharps and Gb has 6 flats). C#bb, anyone

Edited February 7, 2018 by FDC484950
Can’t count!

[T-Bay]

52 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I was musing on this the other day, actually. As @FDC484950 says above, there was a time when Bb and A# were different pitches. Now that they’ve been amalgamated and represent the same pitch, is there an established standard for when it’s appropriate to say Bb or A#? Or any other equivalent sharp/flat note names? I never know which one to say!

My knowledge of music theory is at best rudimentary but the way I work it (and was ‘taught’) is that it depends where you come from. So if if the note before was an A or below it’s an A#, it was a B or above it’s a Bb.

 

That may well be utter rubbish but works for me.

[ambient]

57 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I was musing on this the other day, actually. As @FDC484950 says above, there was a time when Bb and A# were different pitches. Now that they’ve been amalgamated and represent the same pitch, is there an established standard for when it’s appropriate to say Bb or A#? Or any other equivalent sharp/flat note names? I never know which one to say!

The general rule is you wouldn't have sharps and flats together. It really depends too on the key, if it's a flat key, say F for example then it's a Bb, if it's a sharp key, say B major then it's an A#.

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, seashell said:

There are 30 keys?? 

I thought there was just one, the key of bass

[Cato]

3 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I thought there was just one, the key of bass

...and that is the correct answer.

[mikel]

Theory over practicality. Use and practice what you need, when you need it. Everything else is just baggage.

[CameronJ]

Thanks for all these nuggets of gold, folks. It’s much appreciated.

 

2 hours ago, arthurhenry said:

The notes A-G have to be named in each key. For example in D major: D, E, F#,G, not: D, E, Gb, G, as then you would not have mentioned F.

So in the key of B major, you’d need B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A# - correct?

[ambient]

1 minute ago, CameronJ said:

Thanks for all these nuggets of gold, folks. It’s much appreciated.

 

So in the key of B major, you’d need B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A# - correct?

Yep 👍

[CameronJ]

This literally feels as though a veil has been lifted.

[Dad3353]

I still stubbornly maintain that it would have been better to have each note with its own unique name, and forget about accidental altogether. It's only for historic reasons that we keep the old 'C', 'C#' thing, in the same way as we continue to use typewriter keyboards on computers. One day it will all be rationalised; it's just either a little too soon or a little too late.