Who are we kidding - does great bass tone REALLY matter?

[Frank Blank]

3 hours ago, mikel said:

A great, subjective, bass tone is a lot like a great drum sound, it has to sound good in the mix of instruments. I also play drums and I let the drums ring out, no damping. It means they then sound good, and also cut through, in the mix. Played in isolation they can sound too much but in a band situation they are perfect. I suggest a bass tone is the same.

I like undamped drums too, most of my favourite drummers play drums that ring.

[Frank Blank]

2 hours ago, Horrorhiker said:

I'm in an old school hardcore band funny enough. I went metal after Queen but have always loved them. I also like Floyd, and Roxy Music a lot. Brainy rich person music ftw. 

Roxy Music, what a great band, just properly unique.

[TrevorR]

I also find that when I’m loving my sound I tend to play better, or at least am less distracted so more inside the performance. More in the groove. That  will contribute to a better performance by the band and to the punters having a better time on some subliminal level. 

So they may not know why but my tone benefits the punters when it’s good. Yes, it matters to me primarily and I may be the only one who identifies if it’s working or not. But, my sound and my performance is part of the sum of the parts...

[CameronJ]

18 minutes ago, TrevorR said:

I also find that when I’m loving my sound I tend to play better, or at least am less distracted so more inside the performance. More in the groove. That  will contribute to a better performance by the band and to the punters having a better time on some subliminal level. 

So they may not know why but my tone benefits the punters when it’s good. Yes, it matters to me primarily and I may be the only one who identifies if it’s working or not. But, my sound and my performance is part of the sum of the parts...

To be fair, this is a damn good point.

[project_c]

I played a gig in a bar last month, and when I switched over to the bridge pickup on my PJ and dug in a bit, I got a load of cheers and applause. It completely threw me, I didn't think anyone was paying attention to the bass tone. So I think people do care about your tone, or at the very least they notice when they hear something they like. Made me rethink my mostly neck pickup / p-bass approach. 

This was a jazz gig with no guitars which may have given the bass more room to be heard, plus it's a tiny bar with good acoustics, so maybe that had something to do with it too.

[dannybuoy]

There are a few universal truths to bass tone, most of them already covered:

- Most audiences won't give a damn about your tone unless it sounds wrong in context of the music. Use a punk tone in a punk band and a Motown tone in a Motown band, as long as you're in the ballpark they'll be happy.

- That last 10% of the tone quest, this amp/bass/pedal/string vs whatever, only the bassist will be able to hear or give a damn about. But if they are happy with everything they will play better as a result.

- If you have too much gear to play with you waste too much time auditioning this sound vs that sound when you could have been spending that time learning how to be a better player. I for one need to drastically simplify my choices available to avoid falling into this trap so I can practice playing instead of tweaking tones!

Edited February 9, 2018 by dannybuoy

[chris_b]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Great bass tone - BUT do our bands and audiences really care?

If your band doesn't care what you sound like then you're playing in the wrong band, with a bunch of talentless Mr and Mrs Silly Billy, who have their ears painted on.

Tonight the band leader told me I sounded good and 5 people from the audience came up and complimented me. Being noticed and liked is one of the reasons I'm in a band and standing on a stage. Audiences don't have to know about me but my bands certainly do.

If people ignore you maybe you don't sound good. Sound better and make them appreciate you.

[Al Krow]

7 hours ago, dannybuoy said:

There are a few universal truths to our tone, most of them already covered:

- Most audiences won't give a damn about your tone unless it sounds wrong in context of the music. Use a punk tone in a punk band and a Motown tone in a Motown band, as long as you're in the ballpark they'll be happy.

- That last 10% of the tone quest, this amp/bass/pedal/string vs whatever, only the bassist will be able to hear or give a damn about. But if they are happy with everything they will play better as a result.

- If you have too much gear to play with you waste too much time auditioning this sound vs that sound when you could have been spending that time learning how to be a better player. I for one need to drastically simplify my choices available to avoid falling into this trap so I can practice playing instead of tweaking tones!

A really good summary Danny (and one typo corrected - who is this 'her' you referred to? She's obviously on your mind!  ), thanks.

6 hours ago, chris_b said:

If your band doesn't care what you sound like then you're playing in the wrong band, with a bunch of talentless Mr and Mrs Silly Billy, who have their ears painted on.

Tonight the band leader told me I sounded good and 5 people from the audience came up and complimented me. Being noticed and liked is one of the reasons I'm in a band and standing on a stage. Audiences don't have to know about me but my bands certainly do.

If people ignore you maybe you don't sound good. Sound better and make them appreciate you.

 "Sounding good", for me, is not the same as having a great bass tone. (And don't worry, I don't get ignored )

For me "sounding good" to the band and audience is when you're playing with technical skill and 'groove' and sit tight with the drummer and the rest of the band and are playing at the right volume with 'good enough' i.e. decent gear. And being an entertaining bass player (who doesn't get ignored by bandmates or audiences) is something more in addition. Being the best bass players we can is what our bands and audiences care about; much less about the tone that we, as bassists, obsess over. 

However the fact that we, as bass players, do give such regard to our bass tone means that Trevor R's point above is, as Cameron said, also 'a damn good' one!

[NancyJohnson]

I haven't read all the comments, but I have my desired tone, my drummer wants something else.

By and large, the audience don't give a rats-donkey what my bass sound's like.

[dmccombe7]

Several of my friends have commented on this when watching live bands and its also something i usually pick up on myself.

Usually rock or Prog bands i watch.

They notice that when the bass isn't loud enough or carrying depth the band sounds thin. When the bass has a good balance in the mix with the tone that suits whatever band i'm watching it fills the venue better. Not meaning that the bass does that on its own but it gives the overall band a fuller sound.

Mates will say the band sounds empty if bass is too far back in the mix. On the flip side, and it is rare i have to say, the bass being over-bearing causes boominess and band lacks definition.

With regards the actual specific bass tone i'm afraid my mates think a bass is either thin, spot on or just boomy. They couldn't tell if the bass had too much mid or hi end. Its just bass to them. 

Dave

Edited February 9, 2018 by dmccombe7

[vsmith1]

In my opinion, there is so much variety and so most simple points won't cover all the diverse views. At the risk of using buzzwords, there is a gestalt thing (ie total is greater than sum of the parts) going on with a band and all of the timbres, tones, mix and there will be those that work and feel right and some that feel very wrong and most will be in-between (the acceptable zone). As far as individual bass tone then, I agree that most of the time, most of the public won't notice or care if it is in the acceptable zone. But some songs, some genres, some players (I'm thinking of covers here) are so critical to the performance that the acceptable zone is smaller and harder to achieve. For example, Mick Karn's fretless tone on Japan or Chris Squire's on Yes. 

There is also the personal aspect, if we feel our tone is good or even great then we have more confidence, we are more relaxed and we play and perform better. But I hesitate to imply that just searching and buying the best bass, finest rig, pedals to find that tone will, without practice, skill, feel, emotional engagement, etc. mean that we play at the top. (Another buzzword alert) it is a synergy thing: in the words of Kraftwerk - The Man-Machine. 

[Al Krow]

 

2 minutes ago, vsmith1 said:

there is a gestalt thing (ie total is greater than sum of the parts)

Nicely put, and I've even learned a new word for today: "gestalt"! 

[burno70]

8 hours ago, dannybuoy said:

There are a few universal truths to her tone, most of them already covered:

- Most audiences won't give a damn about your tone unless it sounds wrong in context of the music. Use a punk tone in a punk band and a Motown tone in a Motown band, as long as you're in the ballpark they'll be happy.

- That last 10% of the tone quest, this amp/bass/pedal/string vs whatever, only the bassist will be able to hear or give a damn about. But if they are happy with everything they will play better as a result.

- If you have too much gear to play with you waste too much time auditioning this sound vs that sound when you could have been spending that time learning how to be a better player. I for one need to drastically simplify my choices available to avoid falling into this trap so I can practice playing instead of tweaking tones!

This is a perfect summary of my thoughts on bass tone.

[Lozz196]

And I think, moving on from Danny post, if you use a punk tone in a punk band it`s - in general - a tone that is saying "here I am, listen to me", whereas a Motown tone is more supportive, providing a foundation for - in the main - the vocals to shine over.

For example the two JJs - JJ Burnell & James Jamerson. Both great players, but although James Jamersons playing was sublime, his tone isn`t screaming here I am, and aside from us bassists many possibly wouldn`t even pick out what he was doing (the fools, the fools). Whereas with JJ Burnell, well pretty impossible to not hear his stand out aggressive tone.

Both fit their genres, and yes pretty much in agreement, most audiences won`t care that much about the tone, they`d probably notice if the playing and timing was poor, but even at that point would they realise it was the bass that was at fault? Possibly not, we play one of the most important instruments in holding it all together, yet so many have so little knowledge of what the bass does.

Bah!

[Marc S]

16 hours ago, Beedster said:

I think there's an emotional/subconscious level at which all tone matters hugely, perhaps not fine-grain tone but certainly when the differences are audible (i.e., good rig compared to bad rig). Whilst it matters to us bassers in quite an explicit way, I think it's more implicit with audiences. I hear a great tone and to me I know/think it was a great tone; audiences would perhaps experience greater positive emotion throiugh listening to the music but not identify the tone per se? 

So yes, tone matters to us all. This opinion might however be my executive brain trying to explain the fact that my emotional brain keeps buying rigs

I think Beedster is right here. And I think, as others have also pointed out, maybe the audience won't know or appreciate the subtleties of tone - but they will know when it's too loud / quiet / distorted etc
As bass players, not many punters understand our "function / purpose" within a band - heck, I know plenty of guitarists who don't even fully understand!
But we understand our role, and accept that not many punters will - I accept, and am comfortable with that....

But there's something else here - another factor. If I'm happy with my live tone, and the punters are happy with the music, as a whole
I probably play just that bit better, because I'm more relaxed. I know I've played several gigs where either my sound, or the comparative level of my sound hasn't been good in my opinion
So I'm less relaxed, and more concerned about tweaking EQ, or turning volume up etc. If we're happy with our tone - then do we play better? I think we probably do.... discuss  lol

EDIT: Thinking on - yes, tone does really matter, because if I was unhappy with my tone every time I played.... I probably wouldn't bother....

Edited February 9, 2018 by Marc S

[Barking Spiders]

As a music listener tone is #1 for me whatever the instrument.  I got into bass after hearing JJ Burnel on Rattus Norvegicus . It wasn't the notes he played but the tone that grabbed me. On the other hand I hate Steve Harris' tone, one of several things that puts me off Iron Maiden. My ladee and non-playing friends of mine into music are very much aware of the bass tone. They may not know what's making the noise but they notice it.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Barking Spiders

[Marc S]

Just now, Barking Spiders said:

As a music listener tone is #1 for me whatever the instrument.  I got into the bass after hearing JJ Burnel on Rattus Norvegicus by The Stranglers. It wasn't the notes he played but the tone that grabbed me. On the other hand I hate Steve Harris' tone, one of several things that puts me off Iron Maiden. My ladee and non-playing friends of mine into music are very much aware of the bass tone. They may not know what's making the noise but they notice it.

Actually, I quite like Steve Harris's tone and his playing has always inspired me.
But I'm with you here on JJ Burnel. I too loved the sound he got on Rattus Norvegicus. As I've said often before... It's his playing and his sound that got me into bass
And Rattus was the definitive album for me

[Yank]

Bass doesn't matter.  It's just the fat guy standing in the back.  Everyone knows it's all about the singer and guitar player. 

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, Marc S said:

I probably play just that bit better, because I'm more relaxed. I know I've played several gigs where either my sound, or the comparative level of my sound hasn't been good in my opinion
So I'm less relaxed, and more concerned about tweaking EQ, or turning volume up etc. If we're happy with our tone - then do we play better? I think we probably do.... discuss  lol

EDIT: Thinking on - yes, tone does really matter, because if I was unhappy with my tone every time I played.... I probably wouldn't bother....

I think what you're saying is that our tone matters to us, as bassists. For sure, absolutely! But does it really matter to our band mates and audiences?

Have to admit I don't stress about bass tone when playing live nearly as much as making sure that I get the intros and bass 'solo' parts on some of our trickier set numbers, nailed!

[Japhet]

I think it's all about context. I used to play in a functions band which could have anything up to 13 members with full brass section and backing singers. In that situation my bass tone was very straightforward and un-coloured. In that band there was a lot of emphasis on nobody overplaying unless they were soloing. Now I play in a 4 piece Rock band comprising Vocals, Guitar, Drums and Bass. In this context I need different tones to ensure that the bottom doesn't drop out of the sound when there is a guitar solo. I only had a tuner pedal in the functions band but I need a pedal board fully loaded for the rock band (and the ability to tap dance which is a challenge).

[Barking Spiders]

2 minutes ago, Yank said:

Bass doesn't matter.  It's just the fat guy standing in the back.  Everyone knows it's all about the singer and guitar player. 

What about the balding bloke with a tache  in Saxon playing open notes with one hand while punching the air with his fretting hand or errm non-fretting hand ? 

Marc S -  dunno  about you but I generally lost interest in The Stranglers once JJ switched over to a more conventional tone about 5 albums or so in when the band started getting older and softer

Other albums for me where the bass tone makes them are New Gold Dream by Simple Minds, Sulk by The Associates, Lexicon of Love by ABC and No Parlez by Paul Young. Imagine Wherever I Lay My Hat played with the bass relegated to the background. It might've been long forgotten . Everyone remembers the bass rather than the vocal

[Marc S]

27 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I think what you're saying is that our tone matters to us, as bassists. For sure, absolutely! But does it really matter to our band mates and audiences?

Have to admit I don't stress about bass tone when playing live nearly as much as making sure that I get the intros and bass 'solo' parts on some of our trickier set numbers, nailed!

Yes, I think it does matter to an audience - because if we're more relaxed, and more obviously enjoying our tone and our own playing
Then surely we play better? So overall, the sound will be better, and with fewer mistakes (because we are more relaxed) better performance = better experience for the listeners.....
I wouldn't say I "stress" too much about the tone - but I do notice and am distracted when it's not "right"

EDIT: There have been plenty of occasions when a band member has said "nice sound on the bass tonight" - so band mates do notice
And if that means they're also happy with the overall sound - then are they more relaxed / less distracted....

Edited February 9, 2018 by Marc S

[Al Krow]

27 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

What about the balding bloke with a tache  in Saxon playing open notes with one hand while punching the air with his fretting hand or errm non-fretting hand ? 

Marc S -  dunno  about you but I generally lost interest in The Stranglers once JJ switched over to a more conventional tone about 5 albums or so in when the band started getting older and softer

Other albums for me where the bass tone makes them are New Gold Dream by Simple Minds, Sulk by The Associates, Lexicon of Love by ABC and No Parlez by Paul Young. Imagine Wherever I Lay My Hat played with the bass relegated to the background. It might've been long forgotten . Everyone remembers the bass rather than the vocal

Some really useful homework, thanks, in terms listening / re-listening to the basslines on the albums you've mentioned, cheers.

I agree with Japhet's point about context and the distinction between function /covers bands (generally simple uncoloured tone) vs original bands (often more complex colour and tone - but appropriate to their genre).

With pro-originals bands, for sure getting the tone right on recordings will be key and then audiences expecting that when they play live they're going to be reproducing that same studio sound. But I'm guessing that pro-originals bass players with successful studio albums are not 'us' BCers by and large? Their needs and focus will be somewhat different to most of us average weekend warriors, right, only a minority of whom (including notable contributors on this thread e.g. @Lozz196) have released one or more albums?

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow thanks for posting this, its interesting to see different viewpoints, and as you took my original quote to start the thread (I don't mind!) then people will know where is stand on it.

Couple of things, to pick up on a comment someone said about spending hours obsessing about nuances on tone, I think its absolutely needed, as this obsession provides the right glue for the band, the last 10-20% or whatever percentage you want to give it, will be how it is mixed in front of house, to allow the tone to come forward. 

I also agree fully with tone for genre but also tone for what instruments that are also being played alongside with.

@Al Krow a question back as the OP. Do you think the audience also do not care about the tone of any other instrument in the band? I think we can all agree that a decent/very good singer or front person with charisma can really lift any band, BUT considering you have placed yourself seemingly at the bottom of the importance chart, do you think people give a stuff about the tone of any other instruments, and what is your hierarchy of importance? I am talking across the board here, brass, woodwind, keys, guitar, drums etc. 

Also do any of these individual instruments matter, or is it a band collective tone?

 

[Barking Spiders]

7 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Some really useful homework, thanks, in terms listening / re-listening to the basslines on the albums you've mentioned, cheers.

 

Glad to be of some use here . Sulk of course is a great example of upfront bass played with a pick the key tracks being Club Country, Party Fears Two and Skipping. Not much stuff on YT but there's one guy doing a pretty good Club Country. Lexicon - seems to be underrated as bass album but I cant think of one track that doesn't have a memorable bassline. Same goes for New Gold Dream. As for No Parlez, the standout tracks are the ones with Pino's fretless i.e. Wherever, Come Back and Stay,  the title track, Women and Sex (those are two separate tracks, not just one!)