Who are we kidding - does great bass tone REALLY matter?

[visog]

Good thread with some really great observations...

My take: you compromise for a good band mix in a functional setting but you get more personal and distinctive when getting creative - but risking polarizing your audience...

Enjoyed a cracking function band last night with the blandest of bass tones who had everyone up dancing... I'll go home to my Two Notes acid-spitting cobra bass tone and please no-one except myself...

[Barking Spiders]

The thing about bass tone it is probably the thing that can give bassists a trademark style, more so than technique . Think about the likes of Mick Karn in Japan, JJ Burnel, Peter Hook, Steve Harris,  Pino P (on fretless),

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

...as the OP. Do you think the audience also do not care about the tone of any other instrument in the band? I think we can all agree that a decent/very good singer or front person with charisma can really lift any band, BUT considering you have placed yourself seemingly at the bottom of the importance chart, do you think people give a stuff about the tone of any other instruments, and what is your hierarchy of importance? I am talking across the board here, brass, woodwind, keys, guitar, drums etc. 

Also do any of these individual instruments matter, or is it a band collective tone?

Good Q. Clearly getting the overall sound of the band right is huge. But if someone screws up, who notices? Well if a singer gets the lyrics wrong or forgets a line; if a drummer is out on the rhythm or if the lead guitarist plays a wrong note at volume - yup folk wince. But actually it's a relief that I can occasionally be out by a semi-tone on a bass line and that no one bats an eye lid! I think that says something about how 'conscious' folk are of the bass in the mix. Bass played well as part of the overall sound makes an awesome difference to a band. No question! But the bassist's tone is a very small part of that. If I have a valve or a SS amp, well the fabled 12Ax7s may bring a smile to my face and for that alone it's worth it. If I use my brighter, hi fi amazingly articulate VK cab rather than my warmer Markbass cab with its high-end rolled off, I'll notice the difference (and may want to compensate via the EQ) but with either of these would my band-mates or the audience notice or really care with everything else that is going in a gig? I think not. Summed up pithily (a good word, but not as good as 'gestalt') by visog:

3 hours ago, visog said:

Enjoyed a cracking function band last night with the blandest of bass tones who had everyone up dancing... I'll go home to my Two Notes acid-spitting cobra bass tone and please no-one except myself...

Edited February 9, 2018 by Al Krow

[T-Bay]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Good Q. Clearly getting the overall sound of the band right is huge. But if someone screws up, who notices? Well if a singer gets the lyrics wrong or forgets a line; if a drummer is out on the rhythm or if the lead guitarist plays a wrong note at volume - yup folk wince. But actually it's a relief that I can occasionally be out by a semi-tone on a bass line and that actually no one bats an eye lid! I think that says something about how 'conscious' folk are of the bass in the mix. Bass played well as part of the overall sound makes an awesome difference to a band. No question! But the bassist's tone is a very small part of that. If I have a valve or a SS amp, well the fabled 12Ax7s may bring a smile to my face and for that alone it's worth it. If I use my brighter, hi fi amazingly articulate VK cab rather than my warmer Markbass cab with its high-end rolled off, I'll notice the difference (and may want to compensate via the EQ) but with either of these would my band-mates or the audience notice or really care with everything else that is going in a gig? I think not. Summed up pithily (a good word, but not as good as 'gestalt') by visog:

Very true, We filmed our last gig and on one (and only one thankfully) song I messed up my finger position and played a bum note that when I played the footage back stood out to me horrendously, bit looking at the audience, did they notice? Nope, well not in any way you can tell. When our lead guitarist/ vocalist just missed a high note and got a bit crackly for a split second (recovering from throat infection) it’s obvious people noticed it. Not sure if this is a good thing or not though.

[jrixn1]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

would the audience notice or really care with everything else that is going in a gig? 

I attended a swing dance event with a quartet who had no bass player -- instead, the pianist was using his left hand.  (They weren't very good.)  Someone I was chatting to remarked that the rhythm section didn't quite seem to sound right -- but that he couldn't put his finger on technically exactly what the problem was...

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

I attended a swing dance event with a quartet who had no bass player -- instead, the pianist was using his left hand.  (They weren't very good.)  Someone I was chatting to remarked that the rhythm section didn't quite seem to sound right -- but that he couldn't put his finger on technically exactly what the problem was...

No bass player at all (and replacing with a bad pianist) is not quite what I had in mind, here. And I have to concede, yup that would have an impact on tone and get noticed!  

Edited February 9, 2018 by Al Krow

[Skol303]

“Great” tone is wholly subjective. The “right” tone is what matters - and is always dictated by the song itself.

None of which makes for a very engaging discussion on an internet forum.

So carry on. As you were  

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow cheers for the reply!

So following on from what you say, playing a semi tone out or out of time is not tone related, that’s a tight band  and timing.

The overall tone of the band is important, and part of that is bass tone, so in my simple mind therefore great bass tone does matter. Now whether you make it the most, least or middle important tone is then discretionary, and will be a variation from song to song within genres. A song where the bass is the song, massively important etc.

[jazzmanb]

Every bass player heard someone and wanted to pick a bass up,that will have been Tone and possibly image

Yeah you have punters who don't know what makes a bands sound but there's plenty who clearly do.like i cared watching King crimson with 3 drummers .

Edited February 9, 2018 by jazzmanb

[thepurpleblob]

Bass guitars have a tone now? 

[dmccombe7]

13 hours ago, thepurpleblob said:

Bass guitars have a tone now? 

Of course they do :-

BOOM BOOM or PLINK PLINK

Take your pick (see what i did there )

Dave

[arthurhenry]

On 2/8/2018 at 16:38, Al Krow said:

It seems to me that it's far more important to them that I am a really good bass player which I equate with being technically proficient, playing with a groove and sitting tight with the drums and that I don't f*uck up!

To the vast majority of a typical audience, this is not remotely important; at least, they don't know it's important. They have no concept of what instruments are making what sounds, of drums and bass working together, of what bass is and how it differs to guitar. They only know whether the band sounds good and in many cases (to them) this means whether or not the band are playing the songs they like because they've heard them on the radio a lot.

This is not in any way a snobby comment - it's ok and understandable that it's this way.

[Horrorhiker]

54 minutes ago, arthurhenry said:

To the vast majority of a typical audience, this is not remotely important; at least, they don't know it's important. They have no concept of what instruments are making what sounds, of drums and bass working together, of what bass is and how it differs to guitar. They only know whether the band sounds good and in many cases (to them) this means whether or not the band are playing the songs they like because they've heard them on the radio a lot.

This is not in any way a snobby comment - it's ok and understandable that it's this way.

I agree. Most of the audience don't care how good you are at all. It's a bit like saying you have to be good at drawing to be a successful artist. 'Suiting the band' is more important to people I think. Two examples I can think of is people that love Sid Vicious in the Sex Pistols, and on the other side of it, Bob Rock playing with Metallica-which simply feels wrong, even though, I presume, he's a good bassist. 

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, arthurhenry said:

To the vast majority of a typical audience, this is not remotely important; at least, they don't know it's important. They have no concept of what instruments are making what sounds, of drums and bass working together, of what bass is and how it differs to guitar. They only know whether the band sounds good and in many cases (to them) this means whether or not the band are playing the songs they like because they've heard them on the radio a lot.

This is not in any way a snobby comment - it's ok and understandable that it's this way.

 

1 hour ago, Horrorhiker said:

I agree. Most of the audience don't care how good you are at all. It's a bit like saying you have to be good at drawing to be a successful artist. 'Suiting the band' is more important to people I think. Two examples I can think of is people that love Sid Vicious in the Sex Pistols, and on the other side of it, Bob Rock playing with Metallica-which simply feels wrong, even though, I presume, he's a good bassist. 

That's a bit like saying that the Spice Girls sold well simply because they got their image and marketing right and that their awesome musical talent had nothing to do with it? 

[Mykesbass]

On 08/02/2018 at 17:04, Horrorhiker said:

John Deacon springs to mind. (Unless you play bass) he's relatively anonymous both visually and in terms of sound when playing live, until he gets a Killer Queen fill in, or Under Pressure starts, and at that point, everyone in the place appreciates bass tone, whether they know it or not. 

 

Great intro - used to be a long period of silence on the radio when this first came out. Complete waste of time back then :-o

[dmccombe7]

Was never really much of a Queen fan altho appreciated how good they were. Enjoyed occasional singles at the time in 70's.

Always thought John Deacon had a great tone. Fitted perefctly with every song no matter what bass he used.

Does anyone know what amps he used to use back then. ? Just curious.

Dave

[Horrorhiker]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

That's a bit like saying that the Spice Girls sold well simply because they got their image and marketing right and that their awesome musical talent had nothing to do with it? 

There are always exceptions. I was always particuarly appreciative of Emma Buntons musical talent. 

[Horrorhiker]

42 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Was never really much of a Queen fan altho appreciated how good they were. Enjoyed occasional singles at the time in 70's.

Always thought John Deacon had a great tone. Fitted perefctly with every song no matter what bass he used.

Does anyone know what amps he used to use back then. ? Just curious.

Dave

I looked this up once. I think IHiwatt in the early days and Acoustic through the later 70s and 80s. 

[mikel]

4 minutes ago, Horrorhiker said:

There are always exceptions. I was always particuarly appreciative of Emma Buntons musical talent. 

I have to say, If you had a band that was fair to middling  and you wanted to make it big, then the Spice Girls management and marketing machine would be the team to have. If they could make the Spice Girls big they must have been feckin brilliant at their jobs.

[Horrorhiker]

2 minutes ago, mikel said:

I have to say, If you had a band that was fair to middling  and you wanted to make it big, then the Spice Girls management and marketing machine would be the team to have. If they could make the Spice Girls big they must have been feckin brilliant at their jobs.

Professional turd polisher, I think the official job title is. 

[ForestPoetry]

Good tone does matter, but context is everything and you don't have to get too technical or obsessive about it. Really it depends on what you're playing. For pretty much anything I might want to play, a Jazz w/ both pickups and tone wide open, through a Sansamp (adjusting blend, drive and EQ dependant on context), is about the best/most suitable tone going. I like to play with certain EQ settings, but that's more for my own enjoyment. I'm aware the average listener at a gig is likely to neither be too informed or really care that much as long as the overall sound of the band works. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by ForestPoetry

[Dan Dare]

On ‎08‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 16:53, ambient said:

Often what we consider is a great’ tone soloed isn’t so good in a live band context. 

This +10. Applies not only to bass, but to all instruments. It's how it blends and works with what else is happening that counts. Interesting cross reference to the debate about Markbass cabs going on currently. They work in a band context, even though they may sound a little dull on their own.

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

...Interesting cross reference to the debate about Markbass cabs going on currently. They work in a band context, even though they may sound a little dull on their own.

At risk of derailing (my own!) thread, Markbass cabs can also sound just great on their own too!

[ambient]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

At risk of derailing (my own!) thread, Markbass cabs can also sound just great on their own too!

Listen to Michael Manning for instance. I've used my Markbass amp quite a few times for solo gigs, as does a friend of mine. They're just excellent cabs.

[Dan Dare]

Just now, Al Krow said:

At risk of derailing (my own!) thread, Markbass cabs can also sound just great on their own too!

Agreed. I like the way they sound, too, but have to concede they are not immediately impressive. Often, stuff that is impressive on its own has been designed that way for showroom appeal (a reason I think one sees such a large amount of recent, expensive kit for sale - people find it isn't so good in real world conditions).