Who are we kidding - does great bass tone REALLY matter?

[drTStingray]

I know this thread's been running for a while but I want to start off by saying good bass tone is entirely subjective and as someone who has been playing for over 40 yrs and been listening consciously to bass on recordings probably for 50 yrs, I think I have a very good idea of what constitutes a good bass sound and what doesn't - does it matter - well yes it most certainly does - to me at least - the fact that most people I come across like the bass sounds I like and often achieve gives me some comfort that I might be getting it right or rightish - there is no right of course because everyone's life's musical experience and focus is different. 

Do I find myself at odds with some people's idea of a good bass sound - I think I do more now than ever - perhaps that's because my hearing has deteriorated - maybe but I don't think so (I do know that one or two other people's compromised hearing has resulted in argument about the volume of the bass in the mix as they have lost their 'treble' response - the problem has actually been dealt with effectively eventually) - and yes I do take exception to a lot of current commonly held misnomers which seem to be based on an overly 60s centric 'vintage' opinion of things. Of course, you'd have probably been hard pushed to even hear the bass either of the transistor radio of the time and more definitely in live settings.

As a for instance, 18" speakers were quite normal in the 60s and 70s - 10" really appeared in the 80s  and appealed to the more treble centric approach - eg Mark King. So why aren't people suggesting 18" speaker housing with vintage Precisions and valve amps? If you want that authentic woolly tone surely that would be correct? 

Bass tone and sound most certainly matter in most musical genres - that sound can take a variety of approaches though - there is no right and wrong - I favour a focussed sound.

So Mark Bass and Musicman suits me absolutely fine. 

  

[Cuzzie]

Excellent response Doc.

Its nothing against anyone else’s equipment, but re Markbass or not, coloration of sound or etc it’s why I prefer a super clean transparent amp and speakers to transmit the sound I want

[LITTLEWING]

I must admit I'll fiddle for ages to get the sound that's in my head, but as soon as we kick off and I lock in with the drummer it's all immaterial. If I'm watching a band I'm more likely to listen to the overall sound and tightness more than the bass tone which gets lost anyway. 

[TrevorR]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

At risk of derailing (my own!) thread, Markbass cabs can also sound just great on their own too!

Hmmm... as an owner of two MB cabs. I have to disagree. When used entirely on their own they are much too quiet. I much prefer when I use them with an amplifier! 

 

Ba-da-da-dum! Tish!

[mikel]

2 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Excellent response Doc.

Its nothing against anyone else’s equipment, but re Markbass or not, coloration of sound or etc it’s why I prefer a super clean transparent amp and speakers to transmit the sound I want

Each to their own but the bass sounds from the 60s, 70s and probably the early 80s were shaped by the sounds added by the pre and power amp stages and the speakers and cabs of the time. If I, personally, had a sound that was my bass played acoustically, only amplified, like most others I would be adding tone shaping and possibly effects to add some HEFT, as a transparent amplification of my basses would be hollow and thin to me. Apologies, couldnt resist. (Heft)

[Cuzzie]

@mikel absolutely I add colour to the sound I want with pedals, but as it’s not part of the thread I did not want to get into “this is my signal chain etc.”

When I say the sound I want, I mean that modified the way I see fit before it hits amp and cab.

[Cuzzie]

Plus my basses also sound super nice straight in

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, TrevorR said:

Hmmm... as an owner of two MB cabs. I have to disagree. When used entirely on their own they are much too quiet. I much prefer when I use them with an amplifier! 

Ba-da-da-dum! Tish!

That's terrible.

Particularly as they will still be quiet just with an amp.

[drTStingray]

Surely you need 18" speakers for that 60s/70s bass woof. Used to be beloved of reggae players in the early 70s. My Acoustic 370 with 301 cabinet had an 18" speaker mounted in a reflex housing. 

I find it extraordinary that the vintage guys have overlooked this. 

10" speakers were unheard of, 12" for bass were pretty wimpish and 15" was really the minimum desirable in the early 70s. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by drTStingray

[Dad3353]

8 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Surely you need 18" speakers for that 60s/70s bass woof...

My car radio doesn't have 18" speakers, but I can get a decent reggae sound from 'em. (Or at least, I could if I listened to reggae through it, but I don't...  ). Speaker size and 'tone' are not directly linked. Think ear-buds. No good for reggae tone..? Hmm... 

[krispn]

Yes good bass  tone does matter. *edited*

 If your band mates don’t care about tone they’re not tuned in to being in a band. If you’re not constructively listening to your band as a unit and aiming for consistency in your sound then you’re not fully engaging.

To the point about simple set up we’re all capable of going bass>amp>speaker and we could all make that work but once we start trying to find our ‘voice’ with our instrument we do consider effects and enhancements to be more unique and distinguish is from others 

Why is tone important and why would punters care? Well we’ve all been conditioned by listening to professionally mixed music our whole lives to understand what sounds good and the human ear knows when things sound right or wrong. Too shrill we wince too boomy etc we know it’s wrong. A well mixed/good sounding band just feels and sounds right. Within that context we (irrespective of instrument) have a responsibility to play well, sound good and serve the song irrespective of genre. Why do live venues have a sound engineer? To make sure it sounds good of course so the punters come back!

What I found with most musicians once they get some proficiency and begin to understand ‘how’ to play their instrument they take an active role in the sound as much as the technique. They know where they fit in the context of the song and they give a damn about making it work in the band. If these people are not in your band then it’s a sad day for you and the audience.

Yes punters will dance to a bad band, they’ll even dance to bad musicianship. They may not know that that shrill noise is too much 2k but watch their faces when the feedback kicks in. Good sound should be a priority as should a good groove. 

 If a musician is not considering their tone and the bands tone then they’re not really engaging in the process. 

Sure it can get ridiculous but as I’ve said elsewhere if we know how to use our gear, understand what makes a good mix and our place in it then we’re informed enough to get by and sometimes that’s the best we can hope for. I do know that I’d hate to be the one person in my bands who was ruining the vibe or the mix because I didn’t care enough to take an interest. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by krispn
To appease a pedant ;)

[Lozz196]

Def does matter. A band we played with the other night were a good band, not exactly my thing but good at what they did, but the bassists tone was amazing. Fender Jaguar bass, into an Orange Terror, into a Marshall VBC412. Like I said they were good, but listening to his tone and basslines was a pleasure. And it worked in context of the band as well, the two guitars also having good sounds.

[drTStingray]

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

My car radio doesn't have 18" speakers, but I can get a decent reggae sound from 'em. (Or at least, I could if I listened to reggae through it, but I don't...  ). Speaker size and 'tone' are not directly linked. Think ear-buds. No good for reggae tone..? Hmm... 

To use an oft used and seldom, if ever defined expression - they lack the heft 😉

See/ listen to sound systems and bands in the 70s in West Indian areas like Handsworth and the bass would be so loud and rumble so much you'd have to hear it to believe it - big flappy speakers were part of that!! 

To be honest I personally use 2x10s these days - and with a Mark Bass LM3 can fill a room with fat bass sound with only one cabinet with the advantage it's also a tight, focussed sound if required, and I can play some cutting slap/pop if needed or I fancy it! So ultimate flexibility for me. 

It strikes me that vintage is very much a process of picking from a menu - and the 'classic' speakers are simply not part of it - probably because they're so damned heavy and quite frankly technology has moved on. Funny the same doesn't seem to extend to amps and basses - it never ceases to amaze me the amount of woolly bass sound people put up with these days!!  Back in the 70s, as with hi fi music systems, everyone was aiming for more focussed, recording-like sound live. 

Funnily enough, I still am 😀 🤔

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by drTStingray

[Al Krow]

51 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Def does matter. A band we played with the other night were a good band, not exactly my thing but good at what they did, but the bassists tone was amazing. Fender Jaguar bass, into an Orange Terror, into a Marshall VBC412. Like I said they were good, but listening to his tone and basslines was a pleasure. And it worked in context of the band as well, the two guitars also having good sounds.

I suppose the counter is that you were possibly the only other person there, other than the bass player himself, who knew both what an Orange Terror amp was and that the bass was a Fender Jaguar! You also brought with you 30+ years of your craft to appreciate the nuances of his bass tone (and basslines): not unlike a connoisseur (thank goodness for spell check, right? :)) who can tell the difference between a fine wine and an outstanding wine: 99% of humanity probably couldn't; they'd know when something was rough plonk (= a crap sound) but would the audience hear the difference between a 'good enough' bass tone and something that some (but not all, as this thing is also subjective) bass players might consider to be 'outstanding' as you did the other night?

1 hour ago, krispn said:

Yes tone does matter.

I don't think anyone is saying we should ignore tone entirely! This thread is more about GREAT bass tone and whether that matters: the stuff we (and I'm certainly not excusing myself) bass players obsess about in trying to get our 'wine' to be outstanding rather than merely just 'fine' [= 'good enough'] bass tone?

I'm gonna call out the points TrevorR (not the one about Markbass cabs being better with amps) and DB made earlier in the thread, 'cos for me they pretty much nailed it - do you agree?

On 08/02/2018 at 23:38, TrevorR said:

I also find that when I’m loving my sound I tend to play better, or at least am less distracted so more inside the performance. More in the groove. That  will contribute to a better performance by the band and to the punters having a better time on some subliminal level.  So they may not know why but my tone benefits the punters when it’s good. Yes, it matters to me primarily and I may be the only one who identifies if it’s working or not. But, my sound and my performance is part of the sum of the parts...

On 09/02/2018 at 00:24, dannybuoy said:

There are a few universal truths to bass tone, most of them already covered:

- Most audiences won't give a damn about your tone unless it sounds wrong in context of the music. Use a punk tone in a punk band and a Motown tone in a Motown band, as long as you're in the ballpark they'll be happy.

- That last 10% of the tone quest, this amp/bass/pedal/string vs whatever, only the bassist will be able to hear or give a damn about. But if they are happy with everything they will play better as a result.

- If you have too much gear to play with you waste too much time auditioning this sound vs that sound when you could have been spending that time learning how to be a better player. I for one need to drastically simplify my choices available to avoid falling into this trap so I can practice playing instead of tweaking tones!

[jcater]

Have to agree with Lozz196. I recently watched a band in a local pub playing covers from the 60's and 70's, the band were good but the bass tone was one that really did not appeal, far too trebely, aggressive sounding and too loud. A few friends left the pub saying that they could not stand the bass volume or harsh sound. Maybe it is not so important to achieve a really good tone as it is to avoid having a really bad tone for the style of music that is being played.

The type of music being played may well be the most important factor in determining the tone we should be aiming for.

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow you and your fine wines, is that because your in Laaaaaaaaandon and gone all soft.....?!

Whats wrong with a good pint of Ale or Cider eh?!

To me, every point that has been said on here ‘for’ or ‘against’ (I don’t think anyone is actually against a great tone) is actually making a case FOR a great tone overall.

If it sounds wrong, it’s not a great tone, if it sounds great, then it is a great tone no matter the equipment, number of pedals, expense of bass, minutes or hours of tinkering or practice.

Some tone can be stonking and get you on your feet and prick your ears up.

It really is that simple, and yes I am biased as I am sticking by my original statement. I do genuinely think that the audience does care, but what is more worrisome which @krispn highlighted, is if your band doesn’t care, that is ludicrous, crass and plain ignorant, because you can bet if they were in an audience listening they would probably be the first to comment on someone else’s poor tone.

[krispn]

@Al Krow I’ve edited my post to include ‘bass’ 😀

 

Its two different thing ‘knowing why it’s good’ and appreciating that a band ‘sound good’. 

It’s gets into minutiae and a bit of a moot point though doesn’t it - tone v great tone v- superlative tone etc etc. It’s a good discussion point but ultimately boils down to if we feel good about ‘our’ tone.

My point is simple. All band members should give some consideration to ‘good’ tone. I’d hope that the guitarist cares, I’d hope the drummer cares too. If we can’t be bothered to sound ‘good’ for ourselves then for whom?

‘Good’ anything’ is always subjective and it stands to reason that we can only do so much in this quest and we have to accept some truths in talent, musicianship gear etc. Punters will notice a bad tone more readily than a good one as there is an expectation that a band will be half decent if they’re out earning x amount of times per month. 

If a good tone makes you happy and relaxed AND play more in the groove then it’s a good thing. If the tone you have suits the song even better. I play gigs for the enjoyment of it and of course money is nice too. My concern when I gig is that the band sounds good and I hope that translates to the punters if they are conscious of my tone or not. Sure playing the correct note at the correct time is important too but that’s another thread 😀

Edited February 12, 2018 by krispn

[krispn]

There are podcasts and you tube videos where a producer will break a song down track by track and explain why it’s great.

Rick Beato does a you tube one and Christian Hand has some podcasts in which he does the same. They’re worth a listen just to contextualise some of the tone debate stuff on songs you will have heard 1000’s of times.

Its a lot of fun for a geek like me. Maybe not entirely relevant but some guys here might be quite interested in such resources. 

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Al Krow you and your fine wines, is that because your in Laaaaaaaaandon and gone all soft.....?!

Whats wrong with a good pint of Ale or Cider eh?!

To me, every point that has been said on here ‘for’ or ‘against’ (I don’t think anyone is actually against a great tone) is actually making a case FOR a great tone overall.

If it sounds wrong, it’s not a great tone, if it sounds great, then it is a great tone no matter the equipment, number of pedals, expense of bass, minutes or hours of tinkering or practice.

Some tone can be stonking and get you on your feet and prick your ears up.

It really is that simple, and yes I am biased as I am sticking by my original statement. I do genuinely think that the audience does care, but what is more worrisome which @krispn highlighted, is if your band doesn’t care, that is ludicrous, crass and plain ignorant, because you can bet if they were in an audience listening they would probably be the first to comment on someone else’s poor tone.

Two points:

1. a soft Laaaaaaaaandern point: 'you're' not 'your'  for krispns sake

2. I think it's a harsh interpretation to say my band are crass / plain ignorant. They're not, they're (by and large) a lovely bunch and they care a lot about sounding great together as a band. Within that, they will definitely notice if I play too loud but are unlikely to give a stuff whether I play with a Markbass cab or a VK cab or which bass I take along to play with on the night i.e. the nuances of bass tone and whether one particular dirt pedal is better than another (and you know we collectively love thinking about all that stuff) etc. is really not going to be an issue for them and less so for the audience. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Al Krow
purely to prove the Scot right about certain pedantic points

[dmccombe7]

To be fair to some guitarists i've played with they preferred specific equipment. 

Classic rock band they preferred my Jazz bass to any others i tried. They also preferred my Berg AE112 cabs to the studios Ampeg 8x10 cab altho i thought the Berg cabs lacked depth or "heft". They said the Jazz had more edge and clarity but was still a nice rounded deep tone with nice clear mids. 

On the other hand a Funk / blues based rock band preferred my PJ bass to any others i have and preferred my Orange 115 & 210 rig to Berg HT322 or Markbass rig. The PJ bass had more depth than others.

What i took from this was that specific basses and rigs suit specific styles of bands. My playing style was slightly different with these bands where i was more aggressive with the rock band. 

As a band i couldn't say if the audiences noticed anything different when i did use another bass. The bands definitely could tell and had their preferences and were happy to let me know what sounded better out front.

Dave

 

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow it wasn’t aimed at you’re (!) band, it’s a vast generalisation about bands in general, and I am sure they are lovely people. This is leaving personalities aside.

You could have someone who cares deeply about tone on every instrument known to man who is an absolute bell end, and I wouldn’t want to play with them.

Agreed that the nuances between dirt pedals which you are learning whether it’s Fuzz or RAT bases or germanium vs silicone clipping may be lost, and may not be important, but when it comes to that it will be more like does this song need some form of dirt yes or no, rather than which pedal to do that, as long as the bass tone does not suck.

Crass and ignorance is not referring to them as people, it’s to the concept you have laid out about not caring about bass within the context of the overall sound, which is entirely what the OP was about.

[Cuzzie]

@Al KrowOh they they may not give a stuff about the MB cab, because it is giving a great tone already that fits with the band, that’s entirely possible is it not?

You mentioned your MB cab vs VK cab which will be paired with a head. The question is how do they comment on them in comparison to each other? And also which head cab combination?

If they make no comment, then they either don’t care about the bass tone, or they liked all combinations equally.

 

[dmccombe7]

Used my Markbass CMD121P & ext cab with 70's Glam covers band last year and the tone was so good they said it didn't even need to go thru FOH. They were extremely impressed with it. This band had been thru 17 bassists in 11yrs. They had a very demanding schedule 2-3 gigs every weekend. Probably the nicest guys i've met in a band but i just couldn't keep up with their demand and many at short notice and full set changes with 2 weeks notice. 

Have to admit any time i use my Markbass rig it just works with virtually no tweaking. Not my best tone but it always works well in a full band situation.

Dave

[oldbass]

Guy said to me recently, wow you sounded great..I said oh, how'd you mean was it a good tone?, no idea he said ..but I could hear that low sound under everyone else. Dosent that just go to show you what this is all about..the audience havent a clue!And to be honest Ive been to a few gigs lateley (big and small) and even I started loosing interest in the various bass tones I was hearing....seems out in audience land bass is just a drone that seems to be lower than everything else!!

[EssentialTension]

It's not all about tone.

It's also about note choice, rhythm, phrasing, and rests.