Quincy - Oh dear!

[EssentialTension]

3 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

There's two minutes of my life I'll never get back. 

But was Jones right to put all the blame on Starr?

[casapete]

11 hours ago, Bluewine said:

Prior to The Beatles where was there electric bass guitars in wide use?

Blue

Bill Black in the mid 1950's with a singer called Elvis something or other.....

[EssentialTension]

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, EssentialTension said:

But was Jones right to put all the blame on Starr?

If, to answer that, I have to listen to it all the way through, I think I'll abstain, if you don't mind. 

[EssentialTension]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

If, to answer that, I have to listen to it all the way through, I think I'll abstain, if you don't mind. 

OK, it's your life.

[chris_b]

Obviously electric bass was in use from 1935 onwards and well into general use before Macca picked one up. I'm reading Blue's comments to mean that Macca was the first bass player to put the bass lines up front as an integral part of the melody of the song. Which he was.

PS Please don't mention Diamonds by Jet Harris. That's not the same thing!!

[BassTractor]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

There's two minutes of my life I'll never get back. 

Ha! I only lost 23 seconds! 

[Bluewine]

7 hours ago, EssentialTension said:

Here's just one example ...

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Staggering on said:

Not to be rude, but I assume you have heard of Carol Kay and James Jamerson.

Shadows were a lot bigger in the UK. Not exactly what I would consider wide use.

Blue

[Bluewine]

13 hours ago, Staggering on said:

Not to be rude, but I assume you have heard of Carol Kay and James Jamerson.

Not to be rude , but neither Carol or James played bass in front of a captive audience of 70 million on February 9th, 1964 with an electric bass guitar. Paul did.

I didn't hear about Carol or James until years after The Beatles.

I'm maintaing my position.

Blue

Edited February 13, 2018 by Bluewine

[Staggering on]

1 hour ago, Bluewine said:

Not to be rude , but neither Carol or James played bass in front of a captive audience of 70 million on February 9th, 1964 with an electric bass guitar. Paul did.

I didn't hear about Carol or James until years after The Beatles.

I'm maintaing my position.

Blue

So if you hadn't heard of them they didn't exist?Pretty sketchy argument.

I think I'm finished with this thread,Dad was right about the blinkers.

[EssentialTension]

16 hours ago, Bluewine said:

Prior to The Beatles where was there electric bass guitars in wide use?

Blue

In the UK and in the USA, but you had to be there, obviously.

And, featuring Ritchie Blackmore on guitar and Chas Hodges on electric bass guitar, here's Joe Meek's production from 1962 of The Chaps also known as The Outlaws ...

 

[drTStingray]

6 hours ago, Bluewine said:

 

 

Shadows were a lot bigger in the UK. Not exactly what I would consider wide use.

Blue

You had the Ventures in the US?

The Shadows were a huge influence on many bass players and guitarists from the 60s - I've read several interviews where they are cited as the biggest influence - David Gilmour, Glenn Cornick and others. Jet Harris is quoted as the first bass guitarist these guys had seen. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by drTStingray

[darkandrew]

I found the original article that it references a very interesting read. Obviously QJ has very definite opinions on a lot of things but he has also earned the right to those opinions. I also there's a lot of humour and banter in what he says that could be taken the wrong way.

[drTStingray]

Here you go Blue - this is definitely pre Beatles - from an album of the same name and released December 1960. I like Quincy Jones but his comments are very similar to something I saw on a light entertainment show in the late 60s where Oscar Peterson was berating Beatles melodies - it seems to have been a bit of a jazz thing in that era to look snootily down the nose at 'pop' music - very much the vogue amongst the classical fraternity at the time also. The Shadows even included the jazzy instrumental Nivram on their first album - the sleeve notes mention that it demonstrates these guys can really play, contrary to held beliefs in some sections of the music industry/listeners. 

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by drTStingray

[Bluewine]

3 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Here you go Blue - this is definitely pre Beatles - from an album of the same name and released December 1960. I like Quincy Jones but his comments are very similar to something I saw on a light entertainment show in the late 60s where Oscar Peterson was berating Beatles melodies - it seems to have been a bit of a jazz thing in that era to look snootily down the nose at 'pop' music - very much the vogue amongst the classical fraternity at the time also. The Shadows even included the jazzy instrumental Nivram on their first album - the sleeve notes mention that it demonstrates these guys can really play, contrary to held beliefs in some sections of the music industry/listeners. 

 

I'm not budging guys sorry. These bands did not bring the electric bass into the eyes of millions of 9 & 10 year old future bass players like the The Beatles did on The Ed Sullivan Show February 9th, 1964.

 

Blue

[Bluewine]

8 hours ago, darkandrew said:

I found the original article that it references a very interesting read. Obviously QJ has very definite opinions on a lot of things but he has also earned the right to those opinions. 

Not in my book and not when it comes to The Beatles.

I'm not letting Q off the hook.

Blue

[Bluewine]

8 hours ago, EssentialTension said:

In the UK and in the USA, but you had to be there, obviously.

And, featuring Ritchie Blackmore on guitar and Chas Hodges on electric bass guitar, here's Joe Meek's production from 1962 of The Chaps also known as The Outlaws ...

 

Still, not what I would call huge, guys, come on, 70 million people had there eyes on The Beatles and that electric Hofner bass guitar.

I can believe I'm the only one with this opinion on this forum.

Blue

[drTStingray]

8 hours ago, EssentialTension said:

In the UK and in the USA, but you had to be there, obviously.

And, featuring Ritchie Blackmore on guitar and Chas Hodges on electric bass guitar, here's Joe Meek's production from 1962 of The Chaps also known as The Outlaws ...

 

Is that Anton Du Beke on Les Paul as well? 🤔

[grandad]

I am awake, it's 4 am, I know, I'll have a cup of tea and waffle a bit on BC.

For you Blue:

I think I know where you're coming from Blue. As a singer and bassist who was up front rather than at the back with the drummer, Paul McCartney was probably a first doing that. I can't offhand think of another. Jack Bruce and Sting were to follow but I think Paul showed it could be done. Personally I find it impossible with anything other than the simplest of bass lines.

Here in the UK, late 50's early 60's it was Jet Harris as the Bass player with The Shadows, (think the UK version of The Ventures), who was probably first noticed along with his Precision bass, one of the first in England. His 1963 single 'Diamonds' actually got to number 1 over here, a first for a single with bass as lead instrument.

The first Shadows LP, which incidentally was my first LP, Xmas 1961, featured a bass instrumental track called Nivram. I believe it was based on Barney Kessel's - 'Barney's Blues'. I mention this as most of us post WWII babies share seminal moments in our musical memories. The tune 'Apache', and maybe for those across the Pond 'Walk Don't Run', just triggered that "wow I've just love to learn how to play that on my own electric guitar" feeling. Well, Nivram was the first number I heard featuring bass that shared the lead. And so that is why 'Nivram' is my party piece, even though I only picked up my first bass guitar at the age of 50+ I just had to learn it. I also had to learn 'Apache' and 'Walk Don't Run' and 'FBI' and 'Sleepwalk' and 'Riders In The Sky' and etc, etc, etc. Aren't guitar instrumentals just great? My Jazz quartet just nailed 'Samba Parti'. I digress.

He was not well known in the States but very influential over here, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Harris

And whilst reading that I discovered this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paul_Jones_(musician)

What a career!

But to get back to the subject of the remarks made by QJ, they were rude, and his use of the vernacular was quite vulgar. In his exalted position he should set a better example especially to younger fans. His opinions, to which he is quite entitled, I cannot see being shared so much as the contrary. Unfortunately they will taint the pleasure I get from listening to his work.

It's now 7.45 am. I can see me having a nap this afternoon as I have to gig tonight. When I say gig it's a quiet affair as in music to wine and dine to.

Edited February 14, 2018 by grandad
Poor punctuation

[EssentialTension]

4 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Is that Anton Du Beke on Les Paul as well? 🤔

I had no idea who that was until I googled. And as far as I can tell he was not in The Outlaws

[lowdown]

6 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Is that Anton Du Beke on Les Paul as well? 🤔

Haha...Very good.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by lowdown

[EssentialTension]

2 minutes ago, lowdown said:

Haha...Very good.

Once I knew who he was I could see the joke but at first I was lost.

[drTStingray]

7 hours ago, Bluewine said:

I'm not budging guys sorry. These bands did not bring the electric bass into the eyes of millions of 9 & 10 year old future bass players like the The Beatles did on The Ed Sullivan Show February 9th, 1964.

 

Blue

You know what Blue I feel empathy for your position regarding the Beatles and their impact. 

I was about 9 in 1964 - I was aware of most pop music peripherally until then as in the UK it would only appear on the Light Programme on the radio interspersed with everything from Richard Tauber to Elvis. 

The Beatles were the first major pop phenomena for me from Cant Buy Me Love onwards - and bear in mind there were multiple singles in the charts at the same time and the Beatles were also subject to broader marketing like a series of 50 cards sold individually with bubble gum.  Coincidentally pop music TV shows like Ready Steady Go and Top of the Pops started around then. 

So like for you they were a major phenomena - as for opening my mind to bass, apart from knowing that Ringo played drums and the others played guitar I hadn't a clue how those duties were split up. So I don't empathise with McCartney opening my mind to bass at that time. What was very clear to me was all the girls swooned over Paul so he must have had some aesthetic superiority over the rest of them!!

As for the Shadows and Cliff Richard unfortunately for me they were amongst a group of less musically challenging artists (the sort my dad would like - unlike the Beatles and Stones and the like) by that time they were more likely to appear as light entertainment artists in pantos and the like. 

Ive only come to really appreciate that era of very early 60s Shadows in more recent years particularly through meeting other musicians who very much lived the late 50s early 60s era and playing in bands with them - I suspect of Grandad's era. I still prefer the Shadows' later bass players but there's no mistaking some of those early bass lines are excellent. 

The Shadows, as mentioned, had some of the first if not the first Fenders in the UK - post war import restrictions restricting them till the early 60s - Cliff Richard was responsible for their acquisition brought from the US. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by drTStingray

[chris_b]

I appreciate Blue's view.

That Ed Sullivan show detonated a bomb under the US entertainment establishment, who were in firm control, and by the next morning everything had changed.

It seems many people on BC do not understand or underestimate this impact.

The Beatles and Beat groups had a more gradual change here, but in the US one TV show literally changed the world for all future generations of US kids.

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, chris_b said:

I appreciate Blue's view...

But the clue, I think, is in your last phrase...

2 hours ago, chris_b said:

...in the US one TV show literally changed the world for all future generations of US kids.

Changed the world for those kids, I'd agree, but not 'changed the World'. A major effect on those that 'were there', but much less important (as a TV show...) for most of the planet; even less so for those who'd already been exposed to them and their peers. I remember their first passages on the Light Programme (we had no TV at that time...), and was well aware of the hysteria surrounding their every appearance, but to say it was like St Paul's epiphany would be a great exaggeration. There were many other groups around at the time that also caught our attention. A greater impact was the passage of John Peel on the airwaves to many in the UK, and possibly Europe. I'm wary, in any case of fanaticism in any form.