More synth stuff

[Quatschmacher]

I’m uncovering a whole host of enticing stuff. Pedalboard-friendly audio controlled oscillator synths:

https://sonicsmith.com/

 

 

[dodge_bass]

Wow. 

Checks the price. 

Ouch. 

[dodge_bass]

And monophonic. Might be fine might be not. Found the EHX Microsynth frustrating because of this....hmm lots to think on!!

[Al Krow]

The Converter is not an outrageous price by pedal standards (£375) - it's actually less than the new DG AO Ultra pedal or the new Chase Bliss stuff. 

And then I guess you would need to include it in an effects loop or get a couple of ABY pedals to achieve a stomp bypass?

Must admit I liked the demo.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Al Krow

[Quatschmacher]

Did you check out their Convertor pedal? It does most of what the Squaver does but doesn’t have the extra VCF. On their Facebook page there’s a demo of them using it with a guitar to control a Moog Minitaur.

They also appear to have 40% off at present so the Convertor is £225 and the Squaver is £397. Also, they’re based in Poland so no import duty!

I really need to give these a go. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Quatschmacher

[Quatschmacher]

Basically one could run the audio out and envelope out from the Convertor into a Moogerfooger lowpass filter (with an inverted envelope if so desired) and that’d be a pretty fine synth sound right there. 

[Quatschmacher]

I wonder if Sonicsmith would consider just making a product which had the pitch-to-CV convertor with the gate and pitch outputs in it. 

[Quatschmacher]

3 hours ago, dodge_bass said:

And monophonic. Might be fine might be not. Found the EHX Microsynth frustrating because of this....hmm lots to think on!!

Monophonic is just fine for bass as far as I’m concerned. 

[ped]

I just spent an hour listening to synths on YouTube

[dodge_bass]

Interesting...I wonder why there's 40% off (stock clearance) - are they bringing out new models or just struggling to shift units? 

@Quatschmacher yeah monophonic is ok I guess I just didn't enjoy notes not triggering properly on the micro synth so it doesn't made me a little wary. That aside these do look great...just need to find some cash now!

[jposega]

Everything I’ve read about these in conjunction with bass use suggests tracking is pure garbage.

[dodge_bass]

8 minutes ago, jposega said:

Everything I’ve read about these in conjunction with bass use suggests tracking is pure garbage.

Oh. Can you link us to anything? 

[OzMike]

Pitch -> CV conversion for bass is inherently difficult / 'slow' / unreliable, and in my experience practically unusable for timing-critical bass parts (i.e. almost all of them).

[GisserD]

 

[OzMike]

"No latency' is a lie - it's impossible. The manufacturer says as much in the comments in the video, but I guess "with no latency" for analog pitch detection in the video title gets people's attention better. The best results I've had with Pitch -> Voltage conversions has been with Harry Bissell's reworking of a Bob Moog circuit, there's a full DIY version out there somewhere.

[jposega]

1 hour ago, GisserD said:

 

That’s just swell if you’re gonna play quarter notes at 80 BPM.... seems like anything more complicated and you’re gonna get a lot of missed triggers.

You’d also think that for the money these things cost they’d put a little more effort in getting a demo that didn’t have the bass farting out in the low end.

EDIT: for the money, a Future Impact still seems superior, even with its own inherent flaws.

Edited February 10, 2018 by jposega

[elephantgrey]

I don't really understand how bass to CV/midi is so far behind digital octave pedals. I would have thought that the octave pedals would have had to track the notes to create the octave, but I guess they use some other trickery?

[Quatschmacher]

9 hours ago, jposega said:

Everything I’ve read about these in conjunction with bass use suggests tracking is pure garbage.

Have you tried an MXR BOD? That is something great which reads from pitch to create a synthesised voice and it’s tracking and latency time is just fine. So pitch could work. If these track as well as that then I’ll be perfectly happy with it. I need to try in person to form a proper opinion on them. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Quatschmacher

[Quatschmacher]

7 hours ago, OzMike said:

"No latency' is a lie - it's impossible. The manufacturer says as much in the comments in the video, but I guess "with no latency" for analog pitch detection in the video title gets people's attention better. The best results I've had with Pitch -> Voltage conversions has been with Harry Bissell's reworking of a Bob Moog circuit, there's a full DIY version out there somewhere.

Indeed. Elsewhere on the site it says “tracking within a cycle or two) so that could be 24-48ms at the low end. But for standard octaver type use (playing an octave up and pitching down) it’ll probably be useable (much like my Subterranea but this Sonicsmith has more functionality with the CV ins and outs).

[Quatschmacher]

1 hour ago, elephantgrey said:

I don't really understand how bass to CV/midi is so far behind digital octave pedals. I would have thought that the octave pedals would have had to track the notes to create the octave, but I guess they use some other trickery?

 

1 hour ago, elephantgrey said:

I don't really understand how bass to CV/midi is so far behind digital octave pedals. I would have thought that the octave pedals would have had to track the notes to create the octave, but I guess they use some other trickery?

The chip used in the pitch detection is unique here so I’m keen to see if it’s an improvement on current stuff. 

[Quatschmacher]

10 hours ago, dodge_bass said:

Interesting...I wonder why there's 40% off (stock clearance) - are they bringing out new models or just struggling to shift units? 

@Quatschmacher yeah monophonic is ok I guess I just didn't enjoy notes not triggering properly on the micro synth so it doesn't made me a little wary. That aside these do look great...just need to find some cash now!

On the Squaver it seems like the input LPF has been modified to auto follow the input but the silk screening doesn’t reflect this so I guess they modified the internals but still have a supply of casings to use up.

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Quatschmacher

[Quatschmacher]

Not the best showcase but…

 

[OzMike]

6 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

Have you tried an MXR BOD? That is something great which reads from pitch to create a synthesised voice and it’s tracking and latency time is just fine. So pitch could work. If these track as well as that then I’ll be perfectly happy with it. I need to try in person to form a proper opinion on them. 

That pedal is in the same class as the EH Microsynth and other similar pedals - it does basic frequency division / multiplication on a filtered input signal; it doesn't actually convert the input signal to a control voltage as is the case with the pedals you are talking about here, so there is no latency.

[BigRedX]

Pitch to CV or MIDI for the bass guitar is just not feasible unless you have the world's cleanest and precise technique and are playing downtempo music. The laws of physics are always going to be against you. The theoretical minimum response time has going to be one complete wave cycle for the device to have a good guess at detecting the pitch. The open E on a bass is 41Hz, that means at the very, very best you are looking at 24ms between playing a note and the device working out what pitch it is. That's slap-back echo territory (i.e. noticeable), and in reality the actual response time is going to be closer to double that.

Notice how in the demo in the OP you never get to hear the controlling signal in combination with the synth output except when it is making random glitching noises along with the drums. Also notice how the controlling signal is always something high-pitched like guitar or another keyboard. You can't blame the manufacturer for wanting to show their products in the best possible light, but I think a lot of purchasers are going to be very disappointed when they try and use these in a real world situation. 

There are various tricks that you can use to make the tracking quicker and more accurate but all of these take the expressiveness away from the controlling instrument, and IMO the whole point of using something like a guitar to control as synth is that you can make full use of that expressiveness. Otherwise you might as well use a keyboard and the standard synth performance controls.

Also while in theory a monophonic device might be fine for bass parts, in practice one of things that makes the feel of a bass line played on bass guitar different from one played on a keyboard or other monophonic device is what happens when you play parts that swap between the strings. And once you've lost the feel of the bass part from that of playing on a bass guitar you might as well play it on a keyboard (or sequence it).

There are players that can make pitch to CV or MIDI work for them. What you will find is that they are mostly guitarists and that they have spent years honing their technique and modifying their instruments to get around the inherent limitations of using pitch detection to control a synthetic waveform.

I found very quickly that it was far easier for me to develop enough of a keyboard technique in a day or so that enabled me to play synth parts than it was to modify my guitar playing style to get the tracking to work well enough to satisfy my very basic requirements.

[milford59]

That looks like a very comprehensive piece of kit !   I bought a Digitech Dirty Robot synth emulation pedal, but I couldn't seem to get the sounds I really wanted (probably user inexperience !!) , so I returned it.