Still In The Blocks

[Frank Blank]

So here’s the thing. I have been playing for almost thirty years, I cannot read music nor have I ever knowingly played a scale, either in a song or as practice. I have no knowledge of music theory whatsoever. I need to start practicing with some kind of discipline, but I have no idea how or where to start? I have balked at being tutored because I think a tutor will try and talk me out of my (admittedly unfortunate but ingrained)  method of playing with one plucking finger instead of two, I can still play rapidly using up and down strokes rather than the two digits. I get the feeling I am going to be discouraged from doing this but I think it would be extremely hard to unlearn this method and we might not get past this and on to the rudiments that I’m so eager to learn. If you where in my situation what would you do?

[DaveFry]

Find the teacher that teaches what you want to learn .

Theory instruction doesn;t have to come from a bass teacher .

[Paul S]

If you have been playing for 30 years without knowing all this stuff what is the drive to do it now?  Has it become  a sticking point?  Are you in danger of losing your position in a band because the others find your lack of technical knowledge too limiting?  Or maybe just for your own benefit? 

I don't know my arpeggios from my elbow and, whilst I accept it does hold me back from what I 'could' achieve in reality it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to what I 'do' achieve.  Just takes me a it longer.

[Frank Blank]

 

2 minutes ago, Paul S said:

If you have been playing for 30 years without knowing all this stuff what is the drive to do it now?  Has it become  a sticking point?  Are you in danger of losing your position in a band because the others find your lack of technical knowledge too limiting?  Or maybe just for your own benefit? 

I don't know my arpeggios from my elbow and, whilst I accept it does hold me back from what I 'could' achieve in reality it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to what I 'do' achieve.  Just takes me a it longer.

Oh no, the two bands I play in (one ridiculous thrash metal, the other a folky duo) are running quite happily with my abilities as they are, I just feel, for my own benefit, that I’d like to learn more in a ‘traditional’ vein, I might well get a way along that road and think, ‘you know what! I was doing ok on my own’ but conversely I may also get into it and think why didn’t I do this years ago. I just don’t want to miss out on the benefits if they are there to be had.

[musicbassman]

This is absolutely not a critcism - but I would be really fascinated to know how you've managed to avoid picking up any music theory if you've been playing for nearly 30 years!

How do you create your bass lines? - visual 'patterns' on the fretboard? Or can you hear intervals easily and know where to put your fingers to create those intervals?

Anyway - if you think it sounds good - then keep on doing what you're doing!

[Frank Blank]

15 minutes ago, DaveFry said:

Find the teacher that teaches what you want to learn .

Theory instruction doesn;t have to come from a bass teacher .

The first point is roughly what I am referring to, I am not sure what I want to learn nor how to start. Apart from noodling along to songs I like as well as my own tunes I have no idea how to approach the rudiments. Until I experience those I will not know if they are for me.

i play in an acoustic duo with a classically trained violinist who sings and plays guitar, I will put the same dilemma to her and she will prolly teach me but I just wanted to hear what other people would do for inspiration.

[Frank Blank]

14 minutes ago, musicbassman said:

This is absolutely not a critcism - but I would be really fascinated to know how you've managed to avoid picking up any music theory if you've been playing for nearly 30 years!

How do you create your bass lines? - visual 'patterns' on the fretboard? Or can you hear intervals easily and know where to put your fingers to create those intervals?

Anyway - if you think it sounds good - then keep on doing what you're doing!

I have no idea what an interval is btw. In the thrash band we jam songs into existence. Someone will come up with a riff and then we join in or I will come up with a bass line and they join in. In the acoustic duo I write the lyrics, the singer/guitarist will take the lyrics and put guitar and vocals to it, I will take that and put bass to it to finish or we jam in the same way as the thrash band, I’ll have a bass line that she’ll put guitar to or she will have a riff I put bass to. As far as how I create bass lines I have no idea, I just play sequences of notes that appeal, I like dissonance and I like odd time signatures so I am often wrong-footing players who are classically or traditionally trained, I’ll often stick to a note that I’m told is incorrect because I like the clash, I can discern (I think) between a real bum note and one that (to me) causes a pleasing clash or dissonance.

[ahpook]

I'd imagine you've developed a very musical ear after all these years, good on ya !

I think the thing to do is get in contact with some tutors and tell them what you want to learn - you're paying for the lessons so you should be able to ask for what you want. Start the lessons and see where it takes you, don't worry too much about what you think the lessons will be like. Dabble that toe.

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by ahpook

[ped]

11 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I have no idea what an interval is btw. In the thrash band we jam songs into existence. Someone will come up with a riff and then we join in or I will come up with a bass line and they join in. In the acoustic duo I write the lyrics, the singer/guitarist will take the lyrics and put guitar and vocals to it, I will take that and put bass to it to finish or we jam in the same way as the thrash band, I’ll have a bass line that she’ll put guitar to or she will have a riff I put bass to. As far as how I create bass lines I have no idea, I just play sequences of notes that appeal, I like dissonance and I like odd time signatures so I am often wrong-footing players who are classically or traditionally trained, I’ll often stick to a note that I’m told is incorrect because I like the clash, I can discern (I think) between a real bum note and one that (to me) causes a pleasing clash or dissonance.

Well put - I think there's an element of this in all of us.

[Frank Blank]

5 minutes ago, ahpook said:

I think the thing to do is get in contact with some tutors and tell them what you want to learn - you're paying for the lessons so you should be able to ask for what you want.

Dabble that toe.

 

I never think of it this way, classic arriviste that I am, doughing my hat like a farm labourer when the Squire comes round. I tend do what I’m told by tutors and then on the way home Babylon’s Burning will come on the iPod and I’ll go all ‘I used to be a punk’ and give up on any traditional training route and play along to Metal Box for the next two weeks. I need a prolonged dabble.

Excellent username btw.

[martthebass]

I can understand where you are coming from.  My musical training is also minimal though I have played pretty constantly for nearly 40 years.  There are times when I find my lack of musical knowledge a problem, on those occasions, if the issue is theory (it almost always is), I read up on the issue and try and sort it to the required level.  Like you, I've got my own style, as it works for me (I can play fast 16ths for 5 minutes without issue which is as much as I would ever need in my genre) and I wouldn't want to change it.

I think there's some validity in having a limited tutoring session to maybe point me in the direction of where I can make improvements but, for what I do, I haven't felt that need strongly enough to act on it.

One thing I do when I think I'm getting a little 'stuck in a rut' is to set a learning challenge, pick a song (or some songs) that would test me technically and work on the challenge until I've bossed it.  

[ahpook]

24 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I never think of it this way, classic arriviste that I am, doughing my hat like a farm labourer when the Squire comes round. I tend do what I’m told by tutors and then on the way home Babylon’s Burning will come on the iPod and I’ll go all ‘I used to be a punk’ and give up on any traditional training route and play along to Metal Box for the next two weeks. I need a prolonged dabble.

Excellent username btw.

Why thank you - few people even recognise the name....you're an educated man

'Teacher', 'Tutor' - all a touch didactic aren't they ? But I doubt you'll be out in the corridor for not behaving in class.

A good teacher will want to stretch you a little so do be open to that, but be up front about what you want in the beginning and I'm sure you'll find someone who'll show you what you'd like to know, and then settle in for the fun.

I've been playing for 30 years with one 'lesson' from a friend at school in 1987, and I've picked up theory in fits and starts over the years, Learning theory after you know the practice is very enlightening - "so THAT'S why that works"...and you also have a decent amount of motor skills so putting ideas into practice is a lot easier.

Hell, maybe you've just talked me into getting some lessons !

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by ahpook

[burno70]

2 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

 

Oh no, the two bands I play in (one ridiculous thrash metal, the other a folky duo) are running quite happily with my abilities as they are, I just feel, for my own benefit, that I’d like to learn more in a ‘traditional’ vein, I might well get a way along that road and think, ‘you know what! I was doing ok on my own’ but conversely I may also get into it and think why didn’t I do this years ago. I just don’t want to miss out on the benefits if they are there to be had.

As an old thrasher I find the idea of playing thrash with one finger incredible! That's a serious talent right there. Even Cliff needed two! - you must have a bionic finger!

[Frank Blank]

1 hour ago, martthebass said:

I can understand where you are coming from.  My musical training is also minimal though I have played pretty constantly for nearly 40 years.  There are times when I find my lack of musical knowledge a problem, on those occasions, if the issue is theory (it almost always is), I read up on the issue and try and sort it to the required level.  Like you, I've got my own style, as it works for me (I can play fast 16ths for 5 minutes without issue which is as much as I would ever need in my genre) and I wouldn't want to change it.

I think there's some validity in having a limited tutoring session to maybe point me in the direction of where I can make improvements but, for what I do, I haven't felt that need strongly enough to act on it.

One thing I do when I think I'm getting a little 'stuck in a rut' is to set a learning challenge, pick a song (or some songs) that would test me technically and work on the challenge until I've bossed it.  

This is hugely helpful because I think I’m honing my reasoning for wanting to learn via everyone’s contributions to my post. Although I would like to hone my technique (obviously, who wouldn’t) I think it’s more wanting to understand at least the rudiments of theory and it’s applica to what I do. One of the things on here that kicked it off was a post called, something like, Do You Practice in All 30 Keys, I don’t practice (to my knowledge) in any key and more to the point I don’t know what a key is. I suppose I feel a bit foolish and I would just like to understand more. The other day we were rehearsing and I did a run at the end of a verse and the singer/guitarist said “Oh I like that, it’s a whole tone scale” at least I think that’s what she said, I just looked at her blankly. I should have asked for an explanation but I just felt a bit dumb.

[Frank Blank]

1 hour ago, ahpook said:

Why thank you - few people even recognise the name....you're an educated man

'Teacher', 'Tutor' - all a touch didactic aren't they ? But I doubt you'll be out in the corridor for not behaving in class.

A good teacher will want to stretch you a little so do be open to that, but be up front about what you want in the beginning and I'm sure you'll find someone who'll show you what you'd like to know, and then settle in for the fun.

I've been playing for 30 years with one 'lesson' from a friend at school in 1987, and I've picked up theory in fits and starts over the years, Learning theory after you know the practice is very enlightening - "so THAT'S why that works"...and you also have a decent amount of motor skills so putting ideas into practice is a lot easier.

Hell, maybe you've just talked me into getting some lessons !

I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that your username derives from the William Burroughs / Malcolm Mc Neill collaboration? I may well be mistaken as I am far from educated but would class myself as an enthusiastic autodidact, hence the detailed specialisms alongside many gaping voids in my education. I spent a lot of time in the corridor outside class but usually reading the books I wanted to but I actually do think I have a tendency to throw my toys out of the pram before my inabilities are revealed.

Learning theory after you know the practice is very enlightening - "so THAT'S why that works"...

...is exactly what I want, along it’s some kind of discipline to practice along with which I am assuming would be scales.

[Frank Blank]

32 minutes ago, burno70 said:

As an old thrasher I find the idea of playing thrash with one finger incredible! That's a serious talent right there. Even Cliff needed two! - you must have a bionic finger!

It’s just how I’ve always played, we used to cover an old Discharge track, Protest & Survive (but we played it a lot faster than the original) and that used to occasionally result in a bleeding index finger but if it’s the way you’ve always done it you don’t know any better. Anyway, thanks for the excuse...

 

[Coilte]

It is never too late to learn some basic theory. It is time well spent IMO. People learn in different ways.  Personally, I think you'll learn faster from a teacher, as you can ask a question if you are not following along. Obviously this can't be done when learning alone from a book or the internet. 

Assuming you wish to go it alone, then I'd recommend going to the "Studybass" site , (linked below). Start at the beginning of the study guide and SLOWLY work your way through the lessons. These lessons start basic and build gradually from there. They are set in chronological order, much the same as a good teacher would set them.

My advice would be to tackle it in bite size chunks. Don't spend more than half an hour (for now) at a time on learning theory. Little and often is the key. Take regular breaks and come back to it.

I have also linked another set of lessons. They also start basic. Skip the..."this is the head stock.." type lessons, and start where you think is appropriate.

Lastly and most importantly...be patient with yourself. Otherwise frustration can set in.

Best of luck with it.

http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/MusicCollegeTV

[petebassist]

Maybe you could pick up what you want to know from the internet, or books, instructional CDs etc - that's all I ever use as I'm tutor-averse and have always taught myself stuff. And TBH there's so much out there why pay £40 an hour for the privilege? I learnt my basic upright bass technique from Ed Friedland, not Ed in person, but his DVD lessons. Good luck with it.

Edited February 22, 2018 by petebassist

[Coilte]

1 hour ago, petebassist said:

 TBH there's so much out there why pay £40 an hour for the privilege? 

To each their own, but IMO it is exactly BECAUSE there is so much information out there, that a teacher ( at least for a few lessons at the start) is beneficial. Often with someone new to theory the sheer amount of information can leave them overwhelmed and not knowing where to start. They might happen upon a Youtube clip that takes their fancy, but this might be some distance along the "learning path" that the student has to back track later, because he has not covered the basics. Most Youtube clips are "stand alone" where nothing comes either before or after it. This is the reason (assuming the OP does not want to go the teacher route) I posted the particular tutorial links earlier, i.e. they start basic and each lesson builds on what went before.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Coilte

[mikel]

5 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

I have no idea what an interval is btw. In the thrash band we jam songs into existence. Someone will come up with a riff and then we join in or I will come up with a bass line and they join in. In the acoustic duo I write the lyrics, the singer/guitarist will take the lyrics and put guitar and vocals to it, I will take that and put bass to it to finish or we jam in the same way as the thrash band, I’ll have a bass line that she’ll put guitar to or she will have a riff I put bass to. As far as how I create bass lines I have no idea, I just play sequences of notes that appeal, I like dissonance and I like odd time signatures so I am often wrong-footing players who are classically or traditionally trained, I’ll often stick to a note that I’m told is incorrect because I like the clash, I can discern (I think) between a real bum note and one that (to me) causes a pleasing clash or dissonance.

Sounds like you have it nailed.  Why "Learn" lots of stuff you dont need and will probably never use?  Why start playing what is expected, what is the tried and tested, why not be the original and unique you?  If you like and enjoy what you do, and other musicians like playing with you then you pretty much have it down.  Personally I only learn stuff that I hear that really interests me.

[Frank Blank]

3 hours ago, Coilte said:

IBest of luck with it.

http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/

https://www.youtube.com/user/MusicCollegeTV

Thanks for the wise words.

[Frank Blank]

3 hours ago, petebassist said:

Maybe you could pick up what you want to know from the internet, or books, instructional CDs etc - that's all I ever use as I'm tutor-averse and have always taught myself stuff. And TBH there's so much out there why pay £40 an hour for the privilege? I learnt my basic upright bass technique from Ed Friedland, not Ed in person, but his DVD lessons. Good luck with it.

Thanks Sir.

[Frank Blank]

1 hour ago, mikel said:

Sounds like you have it nailed.  Why "Learn" lots of stuff you dont need and will probably never use?  Why start playing what is expected, what is the tried and tested, why not be the original and unique you?  If you like and enjoy what you do, and other musicians like playing with you then you pretty much have it down.  Personally I only learn stuff that I hear that really interests me.

Thank you. I want to learn because I don’t know if I need it or will use it and unless I find out I will always have the thought in the back of my mind that I might benefit in some way. Even if I go down the learning route far enough to realise it really isn’t for me at least then I’ll know but until then I’m left wondering what I’m missing.

[Coilte]

8 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

Thank you. I want to learn because I don’t know if I need it or will use it and unless I find out I will always have the thought in the back of my mind that I might benefit in some way. Even if I go down the learning route far enough to realise it really isn’t for me at least then I’ll know but until then I’m left wondering what I’m missing.

The above was my attitude when I decided to delve into learning some theory. I taught myself to play bass by ear, back in the jurassic period before tabs and the internet.    It is my belief that any theory learned is not a waste of time. Even if you don't use it all the time, it is still beneficial in learning to understand the "nuts and bolts" of how music functions. I have never come across anyone who regrets learning some basic theory. 

[mikel]

15 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

Thank you. I want to learn because I don’t know if I need it or will use it and unless I find out I will always have the thought in the back of my mind that I might benefit in some way. Even if I go down the learning route far enough to realise it really isn’t for me at least then I’ll know but until then I’m left wondering what I’m missing.

Are you missing anything?  If the band starts playing a different genre, and you cant get your head around the bass parts, then there is a reason to look into another way of playing and working on new techniques. I have been playing bass and drums for over 50 years and I can still come up with new stuff to practice and work on without going into standard bass theory or learning to read music.  Its Rock and Roll there is no right way, just your way.