New to Fretless - lined or unlined?

[drTStingray]

Do what suits you best but remember, if it's good enough for Pino........

This popped up on EBay and I couldn't resist - little did I know I'd have to record with it - successfully two weeks later and used it for about three years as my main bass in the same band - unlined Fretless looks so much better but IMHO - others may prefer lined. 

Old Horse Murphy's NBD thread also has an unlined Fretless Ray - a bit closer to the colour of Pino's than mine. 

[EssentialTension]

3 hours ago, BassBus said:

A fretless bass is not a violin, viola, cello or double bass. Completely different instrument and setup. 

Partially different perhaps but really not completely different.

[Happy Jack]

Please gentlemen, let us not resort to violins.

[TheGreek]

Every time I've tried going down the fretless route I've bought lined but you eventually have to look away and so end up having to use your ears. I like the look of an unlined fretboard but the Bass with lines on the top of the board seem like such a good idea - best of both worlds.

As Jack says any good luthier could do that for not too many pictures of her Maj.

Edited February 25, 2018 by TheGreek

[project_c]

Lined for me, with side dots exactly where they are on a fretted.

I don't care about violins, and side dots in weird places confuse me. I also only have limited time to practice and can't be arsed to wait until I'm 74 before I'm good enough to play a fretless in front of other people, so the closer I can make it to a normal bass the better.

I also spend a lot of time playing above the 9th fret, where things get real tricky without lines.

But unlined necks do look nicer, and if I was 15 and had years to sit in a bedroom and practice, I would probably choose unlined. But I am not 15 and I can't face the extra workload.

[neilp]

No, really? The point is there is no need for lines. Do what violinists do and use your ears. Jaco had lines because he took the frets off a standard Jazz, not because he needed them

Edited February 24, 2018 by neilp
quote

[EssentialTension]

9 minutes ago, neilp said:

No, really? The point is there is no need for lines. Do what violinists do and use your ears. Jaco had lines because he took the frets off a standard Jazz, not because he needed them

And, as you know, even with lines the test of a note is the ear not the line.

[neilp]

Final thought. I have 3 fretless basses. The Wal has no lines, the Cort has no lines, and the Squier has lines. I was recording recently with the Squier, because I wanted the woody, hollow Jazz Bass sound. Listening to the tracks back, I realised I was fractionally flat ALL THE TIME. Nobody has complained about my intonation in years, so I was a bit shocked. Ended up playing everything again on the Cort. Came out spot on. The Cort and the Wal are both gigged far more than the Squier. Anyone want a nice VM Jazz with J-Tone active electronics?

[pete.young]

19 hours ago, LewisK1975 said:

Indeed, this seems to be the case, it's proper 50/50 so far.  Maybe I'll pickup one of the Thomann HB jaco-alikes and see what I think..

My only dilemma is I've seen an unlined ESP/LTD fretless PJ on Gumtree nearby which I think is a bit of a steal.  Plus it's got a proper precision sized neck/nut and a PJ layout on a rather nice looking body.  One of these:

Can only really afford to get one or the other right now, hmmmmm...

Well that looks nice. If you don't get on with it, you probably won't lose a lot if you decide to move it on.

Having tried both, I'm firmly in the unlined camp - you need to use your ears anyway, and I think it looks better. Side dots on the fre positions help if you get disoriented.

[pete.young]

19 hours ago, LewisK1975 said:

 

Apologies for the double post, no acknowledgement first time round. Can't find the 'delete' key either, not my day :-(

Edited February 24, 2018 by pete.young

[Hellzero]

I'm basically a fretless player : sixers for the ego, one of them having 31 positions ("frets") for even greater ego. 

I'm also playing a 6 strings 3/4 EUB : ego, I told you. 

They all are unlined and my intonation is always good as I play with ears not eyes as everyone is telling it.

In fact, I hate side dots at the fretted position as they are just confusing me when I take a look at the fretboard.

The problem with the lines is that, in the beginning, you'll have a tendency to play right on it which will make you sound sharp.

You'll also notice that your fretting fingers will not have the same hardness from day to day so you'll have to correct it by ear.

There are four tricks for the beginners and others :

1. Use opened strings to check your intonation as they must be perfectly tuned.

2. Play chords from time to time, again to check your intonation : this is unforgiving.

3. Use a very good tuner like the TC Electronic Polytune in strobe mode to check if you are perfectly in tune.

4. When playing a fretted bass, play on the frets to develop your muscle memory.

 

Use your ears, then lined or unlined won't make any difference.

And don't forget to have your fretless bass perfectly set up by a real luthier as it's the key to perfect intonation.

I would also add to play as often as possible in the higher positions to develop your ear precision.

[project_c]

1 hour ago, neilp said:

No, really? The point is there is no need for lines. Do what violinists do and use your ears. Jaco had lines because he took the frets off a standard Jazz, not because he needed them

I think this statement is a bit of a clichè to be honest. It's a bit like saying 'use your brain' when trying to solve an equation. Great, if your brain already contains the necessary information to solve the problem. Using ears to correct intonation takes years, even decades of focused study. If you have that kind of time available, great. For the rest of us, there's fretlines, so we can get on with the enjoyment of playing a fretless without 35 years of listening to a drone. Just because the lines are there doesn't mean we stare at them all night. They're there to help. We don't stare at fretted basses when we play, but we occasionally check we're in the right place.

If I didn't play jazz, I could probably get by without them no problem, but for soloing up the top end I definitely need those lines.

[fretlessguy]

I learned on a unlined, but if it gives you a litle more confidence then by all means use a lined fretless. I use both since many brands sell only lined fretlesses.  I own both and use both. It really makes me no difference.

[EssentialTension]

1 hour ago, project_c said:

I think this statement is a bit of a clichè to be honest. It's a bit like saying 'use your brain' when trying to solve an equation. Great, if your brain already contains the necessary information to solve the problem. Using ears to correct intonation takes years, even decades of focused study. If you have that kind of time available, great. For the rest of us, there's fretlines, so we can get on with the enjoyment of playing a fretless without 35 years of listening to a drone. Just because the lines are there doesn't mean we stare at them all night. They're there to help. We don't stare at fretted basses when we play, but we occasionally check we're in the right place.

If I didn't play jazz, I could probably get by without them no problem, but for soloing up the top end I definitely need those lines.

I don't play jazz, I rarely go above E on the G string, I don't get asked to solo, I use open strings whenever possible, and I certainly didn't spend 35 years listening to a drone ...

... but I've never had complaints about my intonation on upright or fretless whether lined or unlined except when I already knew I had missed the note.

Like was said before, the OP will have to choose; but it doesn't take 35 years to learn some competence on a fretless, lined or unlined.

[neilp]

3 hours ago, project_c said:

I think this statement is a bit of a clichè to be honest. It's a bit like saying 'use your brain' when trying to solve an equation. Great, if your brain already contains the necessary information to solve the problem. Using ears to correct intonation takes years, even decades of focused study. If you have that kind of time available, great. For the rest of us, there's fretlines, so we can get on with the enjoyment of playing a fretless without 35 years of listening to a drone. Just because the lines are there doesn't mean we stare at them all night. They're there to help. We don't stare at fretted basses when we play, but we occasionally check we're in the right place.

If I didn't play jazz, I could probably get by without them no problem, but for soloing up the top end I definitely need those lines.

I think that statement is a nonsense, to be honest. It doesn't take 35 years. The dots are more use than lines anyway. Try it. Give yourself a few months. If you can play in tune with lines, you will be able to play better in tune without them, and you'll find you have more brain available for playing music. Just as for all string players, you should be focussing on the hand that actually makes the sound, and that's not your left. Sheku Kanneh Mason has no lines on his cello, and he's only 20.....

Learn to do it without the training wheels

[EssentialTension]

1 hour ago, neilp said:

... Sheku Kanneh Mason has no lines on his cello, and he's only 20 ....

 

Never heard of him before but I can tell he's better at it than me. Only 17 here but probably practised quite a lot ...

 

[neilp]

Yhe point is he hasn't, and no good string player has, learned where every note on the fingerboard is, he's learned how the shifts work and how the intervals feel in different positions. Its how we should all do it, fretless or not

[Frank Blank]

11 hours ago, neilp said:

Its how we should all do it, fretless or not

We are all different so we should do it whichever way feels most productive, no one way is best for everyone.

[aguacollas]

You can always have an unlined fretboard and draw lines with a pencil, erase them as you learn and get more confident with it, as a removable easy guide. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by aguacollas

[T-Bay]

I like the ‘security’ of the lines, perhaps it’s coming from a fretted starting point. I know there will be a sharp intake of breath at this but I also find that I can just feel the lines on the pads of my fingers which helps a lot when making big moves up or down the fret board. I appreciate this is a cheat but it works for me. I see the lined fretless as a stepping stone in a way. Even with all that I am not confident enough with it to gig it yet.

[BassBus]

I think manufacturers should just stop being lazy and finish the basses properly. Put frets in the neck and that would do away with all this stupid arguing 😄😉

[shamrock198804]

Having lines and dots doesn't challenge enough to start using your ear - at least this is how I feel. 

One of the reasons I bought the double bass was to develop my ear, as my, nomen omen, precision bass made me too lazy. I developed thinking about notes as patterns on my fingerboard rather than sounds I need to listen to. I know it might be just me, but it still seems like a common side effect of playing on a fretted instrument. 

Considering the above, the choice should be dictated by the intention behind the fretless. If it's the sound or comfort, lined will do, but if it's general musical development and taking it outside ones comfort zone, I'd say go for as plain a fingerboard as possible. 

I'm not an authority on that though, just my own reflections on the matter.

There's also a valuable lesson in the training wheels metaphor. Children struggle so much  when the wheels are finally removed, because they need to get rid of all the bad habits they developed. I'm sure motorcyclists know what 'counter steering' is, but in general, after removing the wheels (or transitioning from the tricycle to bicycle) you literally need to start pushing the handlebars to the opposite direction than you used to. The conclusion is all cyclists make poor basists, or something, I don't know

Edited February 25, 2018 by shamrock198804

[EssentialTension]

4 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

We are all different so we should do it whichever way feels most productive, no one way is best for everyone.

But many of us are very similar so there is very good reason and a sensible motive to test and even to adopt some methods that have worked for others.

[Count Bassy]

Surely a lined fretless covers all options. The lines are there if you want them and if you don't want the lines then don't look at them.

-  or is it to do with the kudos of the audience going Wow - he's playing without lines.

 

[Paul S]

4 minutes ago, Count Bassy said:

-  or is it to do with the kudos of the audience going Wow - he's playing without lines.

 

That is an unnecessarily snarky remark.  Some people prefer no lines, some people like to have them.  I don't see why having the opposite view to the one you hold needs to provoke such a small minded response.