cheddatom Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I'm feeling a bit embarrassed reading through this thread. I play drums in a few bands, and while I find playing to a metronome easy, when I'm playing without I often speed up as the track progresses. I also count some songs in too fast or too slow. I really need to work on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Dean Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Our Drummer also sings most of the set & that helps . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, cheddatom said: I'm feeling a bit embarrassed reading through this thread. I play drums in a few bands, and while I find playing to a metronome easy, when I'm playing without I often speed up as the track progresses. I also count some songs in too fast or too slow. I really need to work on it I'd much rather play with a drummer that speeds up than slows down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartelby Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I played with the same drummer in two different bands. In the rock orientated band he was fine and played what was needed, in time and at the right tempo. In the more punk band he was a bit of a nightmare. Songs that started with guitar or bass would jump 20-30 bpm when the drums kicked in. He'd overplay and the fills would throw the time/tempo even more out. Song dynamics went out the window too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 33 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said: That's the fun bit if you're pulled into a tempo that is quicker than the one you have practiced a standard at for years. It's not fun if it spoils the song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Songs can be played at many speeds but everyone should be expecting the tempo that is counted in. The speed should be right for the song and arrangement. I know a very good drummer who always starts the song, even the fast ones, quicker than the count in. He doesn't get any gigs around here anymore. A couple of years ago, our cover band realised that we were playing many songs slower than the original and as a result we were sounding a bit "tired". We went back to the original bpm and suddenly the songs came alive. Everything, the drum patterns and bass lines etc, started working, as if by magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 when you here live versions of well known songs I've found they're almost always faster than the original recordings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, EssentialTension said: It's not fun if it spoils the song. Yes, that is implicit to what I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Whilst I agree with most of what's been said, what about the times when some songs do need to be ramped up a bit, usually in order to make them more punter friendly to dance to? Although this can make them a bit less groovy than the originals, people are so used to hearing them a bit faster that they think the original tempos are a bit leaden. Prime examples of these include 'Knock on Wood', 'In the Midnight hour' and even 'Mustang Sally'. Probably due to Commitments style renderings I imagine, but played at the original (and better IMO) tempos, they can discourage people to dance from my experience. Anyone have any more examples of songs that go down better that little bit 'brighter'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, casapete said: Whilst I agree with most of what's been said, what about the times when some songs do need to be ramped up a bit, usually in order to make them more punter friendly to dance to? Although this can make them a bit less groovy than the originals, people are so used to hearing them a bit faster that they think the original tempos are a bit leaden. Prime examples of these include 'Knock on Wood', 'In the Midnight hour' and even 'Mustang Sally'. Probably due to Commitments style renderings I imagine, but played at the original (and better IMO) tempos, they can discourage people to dance from my experience. Anyone have any more examples of songs that go down better that little bit 'brighter'? I Get by with a Little Help from my Friends! But seriously; Stairway to Heaven could be revived as a dance number if you gave it 125bpm in E flat with a funky horn section behind you. That'd make Saturday morning's musical instrument shop mosh-pit interesting for the staff again. Edited February 26, 2018 by SpondonBassed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I played in a band for years where the guitarist would insist on counting all the songs in (because they usually always started with some sort of bluesy widdle halfway through a bar) but his count would usually be at a totally different speed (and at worst time signature) to what he would then start playing. His favourite was to stamp his foot instead of counting at gigs because he thought it was more subtle, but would end up sounding like some sort of angry hobnailed Long John Silver, and would stamp so hard it would get slower and slower as he got to "...four" but would then blast off at a totally different playing speed. Luckily me and the drummer were wise to him, and usually came in at the right spot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bam Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Bass is a funny instrument that some people just dont get. Its about feel and groove. If your drummer goes too fast you cant fit the feel of the groove in, although you may be able to fit the notes in. This is not the same thing. Im sure some people who dont play bass think the same thing played faster will still have the same result. That is definitely not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seashell Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 7 hours ago, SpondonBassed said: I played with @PaulWarning and Wendy one night. Wendy on drums, Paul on guitar and vox, me on bass. He did advise me that it was intended as a punk performance. The BPM on The Letter was enough to make my fingertips smoke but the beat was consistent and relentless and fun. OMG 'The Letter'. I know that smoking fingertip feeling! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 As a singer who plays and a player who sings, can we not lose sight of the fact that it is SONGS we are talking about. The band`s job is to support the singer, not force him to perform the song faster or slower than he feels like on the night. Thats is OK if you are playing tunes but then it is the person who plays the melody who has the right to set tempo. Any other interpretation you put on this is showing your own personal bias (and very likely inadequacies too!) We are there to help, not police. (end of rant) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 18 minutes ago, ivansc said: As a singer who plays and a player who sings, can we not lose sight of the fact that it is SONGS we are talking about. The band`s job is to support the singer, not force him to perform the song faster or slower than he feels like on the night. Thats is OK if you are playing tunes but then it is the person who plays the melody who has the right to set tempo. Any other interpretation you put on this is showing your own personal bias (and very likely inadequacies too!) We are there to help, not police. (end of rant) What about instrumental songs? Singers ego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 34 minutes ago, ivansc said: As a singer who plays and a player who sings, can we not lose sight of the fact that it is SONGS we are talking about. The band`s job is to support the singer, not force him to perform the song faster or slower than he feels like on the night. I thought it was the bands job to perform songs for the crowd rather than just be an ego trip for the singer, that is, lets face it, just another instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 45 minutes ago, ivansc said: As a singer who plays and a player who sings, can we not lose sight of the fact that it is SONGS we are talking about... So what's the score if the singer wants to sing a number slowly, and it turns the song into a pig's ear..? Go with the singer's choice..? Surely not..? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, ivansc said: Any other interpretation you put on this is showing your own personal bias (and very likely inadequacies too!) We are there to help, not police. I have been in bands where the singer thinks like this, note the past tense "have", lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, la bam said: Bass is a funny instrument that some people just dont get. Its about feel and groove. If your drummer goes too fast you cant fit the feel of the groove in, although you may be able to fit the notes in. This is not the same thing. Im sure some people who dont play bass think the same thing played faster will still have the same result. That is definitely not the case. This 100% If you need to speed a song up to make it more punter friendly then you probably haven't nailed the groove properly. If a song is genuinely a bit too slow then rehearse it a bit quicker, make sure it still swings and then use a flashing metronome to play it at the speed you rehearse it at when you're gigging. We regularly use pro dep drummers and the best ones all use the visual metronome without any prompting. We have bpms on our master song list spreadsheet. Edited February 26, 2018 by mrtcat Typo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 57 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: So what's the score if the singer wants to sing a number slowly, and it turns the song into a pig's ear..? Go with the singer's choice..? Surely not..? Probably depends on who has the biggest ego. (I can see that descending into a 'my ego's bigger than yours' slanging match!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbass Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 This is an apt thread. We're curently trying to nail the speeded up bit on 'Come On Eileen'...yes I know but it was a majority decision etc ( I just play the notes ha), but can the drummer get it?..not a chance. Overall it actually sounds pretty good but if he cant do it then it goes in the bin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, oldbass said: Overall it actually sounds pretty good but if he cant do it then it goes in the bin. Yep. If the band can't make a song work, for whatever reason, don't fret, just bin it. There are always other songs out there that will work so don't spend time trying to fix something that can't be fixed. We once had a singer trying to force Jermain Jackson's Let's Get Serious on the band, when half of the guys were so far out of their comfort zones and had not idea how to play it! In the end we never gigged it but the unhappiness and bad feeling lasted a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, chris_b said: Yep. If the band can't make a song work, for whatever reason, don't fret, just bin it. There are always other songs out there that will work so don't spend time trying to fix something that can't be fixed. We once had a singer trying to force Jermain Jackson's Let's Get Serious on the band, when half of the guys were so far out of their comfort zones and had not idea how to play it! In the end we never gigged it but the unhappiness and bad feeling lasted a long time. every member of our band has a veto, if they really don't want to do a song we don't do it, of course it relies on people not over using it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 53 minutes ago, PaulWarning said: every member of our band has a veto, if they really don't want to do a song we don't do it, of course it relies on people not over using it Same here, works quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 3 hours ago, PaulWarning said: every member of our band has a veto, if they really don't want to do a song we don't do it, of course it relies on people not over using it It seems to me there are really two general ways of running a band: 1 It's a collective where everyone and anyone has a veto (usually after giving a song a fair chance); or ... 2 It's someone's band, in which case that person is the musical director and everyone plays as they are asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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