Markaudio linear array systems

[Happy Jack]

Completely unexpectedly, the thing that most blew me away at the LBGS this year was the two linear array PA systems being displayed by Markaudio - the Ergo and the Audio Chain.

I was sufficiently impressed that I've persuaded MoJoKe of this parish (Kevin, who was in charge of them at Olympia at the weekend) to give me a private demo at gig volumes on Thursday morning (8th March) in Maidenhead.

These systems won't be for everybody, if only because of the price, but if there's a Basschatter or two with a genuine interest who'd like to come along and see what the fuss is about, please drop me a PM.

http://www.markaudio.it/

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Happy Jack

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

They're a variation on the Bose L1. That's not a good thing, as just like the L1 they place the high frequency line atop the low frequency cab. They also cross over from the low frequency to high frequency elements at 180Hz. Those two features make it impossible to place the LF and HF elements where they both work as well as possible, which is almost never in the same footprint.

[JapanAxe]

7 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

They're a variation on the Bose L1. That's not a good thing, as just like the L1 they place the high frequency line atop the low frequency cab. They also cross over from the low frequency to high frequency elements at 180Hz. Those two features make it impossible to place the LF and HF elements where they both work as well as possible, which is almost never in the same footprint.

Not quite, Bill. In the Bose L2, the HF line does indeed slot into the top of the LF cab. The L1's HF line slots into the 'footprint' that houses the amp, but the LF cab(s) is/are connected by a 4-pole Speakon cable, so you can separate the elements by a couple of feet, or more if you get a longer cable.

The reason I know this is that I have owned and used an L1 (Model 2) for some 7 years. The main issue I have found is that when you raise the volume, the LF cabs (which are pretty conventional 'point source' units as far as I can tell) can't keep up with the HF line array, so the sound becomes thinner. Bose will happily sell you more LF cabs and a little 'Packlite' power amp to run them - a friend of mine did exactly this to avoid losing the bottom end of his keyboard!

To me the Bose is a reasonable compromise between portability (entire system weighs 50kg) and convenience (hardly any cabling to run) on the one hand, and cost on the other, and the sound is good within limits.

[Steve Browning]

29 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

They're a variation on the Bose L1. That's not a good thing, as just like the L1 they place the high frequency line atop the low frequency cab. They also cross over from the low frequency to high frequency elements at 180Hz. Those two features make it impossible to place the LF and HF elements where they both work as well as possible, which is almost never in the same footprint.

That's very interesting - considering most pa cabs have the drive units one above the other in a single enclosure. Obviously there is no chance of anything else in a single unit but what about these other systems. Take the Bose one. How should that be sited for maximum (sonic) benefit?

[MoJoKe]

16 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

They're a variation on the Bose L1....

With the greatest of respect Bill, they have absolutely NOTHING in common with Bose, either in design, or their acoustic profile.  Are you speaking from personal experience of Markaudio, or just in general?  I have no need to feel defensive here, so that is not meant as a personal challenge!

When I am not at Bass shows I am a pro bass player and also run a wet hire PA rig.  I use Danley.  Tom Danley is an ex-NASA acoustics guy, and you're more likely to have heard of them in the US than in the UK.  My "small" rig comprises 4 x THMini and 2 x SM60F, powered by an MC2 Delta 80, giving 8Kw FOH.

When I was asked to help launch the Markaudio, I started researching all the available options for compact array systems, and fully concluded that I agree with your comment for 90% of them, so launching another one, however different, was going to be an uphill challenge!  When I set the Markaudio up alongside my Danley rig in a big room, I was not able to measure much discernable difference in frequency profile.  The only obvious difference was that it had a bit less raw power.  The Markaudio systems are specifically designed for live music, rather than the "try to fit every application" (DJ's, mostly!) approach of nearly all other brands.  As a result it has real dynamics, its punchy and articulate and doesn't sound at all  processed.

Anyone free on Thursday, happy to have you along!  If this isn't convenient, I am happy to do another session or we could tie it in with one of the Markaudio dealers...?

 

[MoJoKe]

11 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

That's very interesting - considering most pa cabs have the drive units one above the other in a single enclosure. Obviously there is no chance of anything else in a single unit but what about these other systems. Take the Bose one. How should that be sited for maximum (sonic) benefit?

Steve, in the last few months I have had some seriously highly experienced sound guys try to kick holes in the Markaudio systems, and they have mostly been very impressed.  With both the Ergo and Audio Chain systems there is NO hole in between high and low frequencies, as Bill suggests.  You can sit 4 inches away or 40ft and that still applies.

The other issue is that their design means that you can completely separate the elements and position them wherever you like.  In fact the AC system is also completely modular, so you can add more subs and extend the size of the arrays (even adjacent to each other), without any noticeable degradation of output or interference.

So...  Lets stop talking about Bose please!

Edited March 6, 2018 by MoJoKe

[JapanAxe]

9 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

Take the Bose one. How should that be sited for maximum (sonic) benefit?

I was wondering the same.

[MoJoKe]

Subject to confirmation from Scrumpy Mike, I will happily bring both systems to the SW Bass Bash next month....

More information on the systems here:-

http://www.markaudio.it/

PM me if you need more info!

Edited March 6, 2018 by MoJoKe

[Steve Browning]

15 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

Steve, in the last few months I have had some seriously highly experienced sound guys try to kick holes in the Markaudio systems, and they have mostly been very impressed.  With both the Ergo and Audio Chain systems there is NO hole in between high and low frequencies, as Bill suggests.  You can sit 4 inches away or 40ft and that still applies.

The other issue is that their design means that you can completely separate the elements and position them wherever you like.  In fact the AC system is also completely modular, so you can add more subs and extend the size of the arrays (even adjacent to each other), without any noticeable degradation of output or interference.

So...  Lets stop talking about Bose please!

I can talk about whichever system I please.

I am tempted with an RCF system that impressed me greatly at the week-end, at a price that seems worthwhile. Bill's post suggests that this arrangement is not the most efficient (as it is sold) and and so I am asking which is the most efficient set up for such a system.

[yorks5stringer]

It would be good to get a chance to hear the new Mark Audio system at the SW Bash (other systems are available!)

[JapanAxe]

27 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

So...  Lets stop talking about Bose please!

I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it.

[yorks5stringer]

Buy other sound equipment

[stevie]

1 hour ago, MoJoKe said:

Subject to confirmation from Scrumpy Mike, I will happily bring both systems to the SW Bass Bash next month....

More information on the systems here:-

http://www.markaudio.it/

PM me if you need more info!

I'd love to hear those Synergy horns and tapped horns. Doesn't everyone know about Tom Danley?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

Take the Bose one. How should that be sited for maximum (sonic) benefit?

It can't. Low frequency sources work best when they're close to a wall. When they're placed away from a wall the reflected and direct waves will meet at 180 degrees out of phase, resulting in a cancellation notch, the frequency of the notch being determined by the distance to the wall and the listener position. If the system can be placed less than 3 feet from the wall it's not a concern, but you can't do that if it puts the high frequency array behind the mics. Also, if you have left and right high frequency sources that forces the low frequency sources to be split. In the majority of rooms they should not be split, they should be clustered together, other wise you end up with a power alley situation.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_search_of_the_power_alley/

Even if you jury rigged cables that allowed you to put the tops and the bottoms where they each work best the works get gummed up when the crossover is higher than 100-120Hz or so, as that makes the low frequency sources directionally locatable. That's aggravated when the low frequency sources are direct radiating, as the high THD of direct radiators substantially increases harmonic content well above the crossover frequency.

To answer the next logical question, 'Why does it seem that everyone stacks their mains above their subs and splits the subs left and right', the simple answer is that they don't know any better. Now you do. And as the next question will likely be 'Why do they put pole mounts in subs that encourage putting the mains above them?", no manufacturer wants to lose a sale for the lack of a feature, especially an inexpensive feature, that buyers want, whether it's a beneficial feature or not.

 

[EBS_freak]

Mmm. Danley. When I bought my last rig I nearly went Danley... til I saw saw the weights. Having said that, the rig above seems quite manageable in terms of size and weight. But then again, I was working around a TH18.

What we really want is a Jehrico coming in a 20kg

Edited March 6, 2018 by EBS_freak

[MoJoKe]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

I can talk about whichever system I please...

Forgive me, that wasn't a telling off!  Just that Bill made an incorrect comparison, and this thread is not about Bose , so not really relevant!

 

1 hour ago, JapanAxe said:

I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it.

haha!

[MoJoKe]

55 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Mmm. Danley. When I bought my last rig I nearly went Danley... til I saw saw the weights.

Mmmm indeed!  And the delta amp is amazing! Yup, our bigger PA is 2 x TH115's  and 2 x SH69s and they're bad enough!  With my THminis I put all four of them in a mono cluster, and they sound epic!   I can get the whole PA into my VW caddy along with my bass rig...

Edited March 6, 2018 by MoJoKe

[EBS_freak]

I would never buy one of these Mark Audio things based on one thing. Too easy for somebody to be a prick and poke their fingers into the speaker cones.

[MoJoKe]

33 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

...'Why does it seem that everyone stacks their mains above their subs and splits the subs left and right', the simple answer is that they don't know any better.'

That statement is frankly stupid, unhelpful and insulting to many people here.

The correct answer is that most venues will not have their own sound system tuned to perfection for live music for that specific room, and they also won't allow you to treat their whole venue as an exercise in sonic perfection, as they have a business to run. So, you get the stage and a bit in front of it and have to do the best with what you have got, in the time you have to do it.  I don't know that I have ever been given much more than 2 hours to set and soundcheck for anything smaller than a large theatre, and for most wedding gigs you get even less.  So those of us here making a living as professional gigging musicians have to choose a sound reinforcement system to do the job best with consideration to a balance between weight, size, portability, convenience and the best quality you can afford.  Many manufacturers, including Mark, Bose, RCF, et al. are investing millions to make this quality accessible.

If you are an expert, and want to start a new and helpful thread being negative about compact line array, feel free, but please don't hijack this one!

 

[MoJoKe]

1 hour ago, stevie said:

I'd love to hear those Synergy horns and tapped horns. Doesn't everyone know about Tom Danley?

PM me... we can arrange that...  you are not that far from me!

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

That statement is frankly stupid, unhelpful and insulting to many people here.

The correct answer is that most venues will not have their own sound system tuned to perfection for live music for that specific room, and they also won't allow you to treat their whole venue as an exercise in sonic perfection, as they have a business to run. So, you get the stage and a bit in front of it and have to do the best with what you have got, in the time you have to do it.  I don't know that I have ever been given much more than 2 hours to set and soundcheck for anything smaller than a large theatre, and for most wedding gigs you get even less.  So those of us here making a living as professional gigging musicians have to choose a sound reinforcement system to do the job best with consideration to a balance between weight, size, portability, convenience and the best quality you can afford.  Many manufacturers, including Mark, Bose, RCF, et al. are investing millions to make this quality accessible.

If you are an expert, and want to start a new and helpful thread being negative about compact line array, feel free, but please don't hijack this one!

 

Quite - manufacturers have been booted from other forums for ridiculing other manufacturers. It's a pretty lame thing to do.

Edited March 6, 2018 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

PM me... we can arrange that...  you are not that far from me!

Mmm. Danley.

 

Sorry, I'm still having a moment!

[MoJoKe]

30 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Too easy for somebody to be a prick and poke their fingers into the speaker cones.

Yes, but you'd need a fairly small prick to do that!!   Actually the drivers are pretty tough, and can be swapped with just 4 screws, but its a fair observation...

Edited March 6, 2018 by MoJoKe

[Dan Dare]

If you're looking at spending that sort of money and that sort of rig (sub plus array), make sure you check out Fohhn. Made in Germany, great after sales/backup and really excellent sound. I bought my Fohhn rig after pretty extensive listening/comparing and love it. It's like a giant hi-fi.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, MoJoKe said:

If you are an expert, and want to start a new and helpful thread being negative about compact line array, feel free, but please don't hijack this one!

The comment about proper sub placement doesn't refer to compact arrays in particular, it refers to PA systems in general. Ask any PA operator who splits their subs and puts them under the mains why they do it that way.  They'll be hard pressed to come up with an answer, other than 'that's the way everyone does it', 'that's the way I've always done it", or 'that's the only way I know how to do it'. Doing a PA setup the right way is no more difficult than doing it the wrong way, if you know what the right way is. The PA  industry in general has not made any attempt at providing the average user that information. It could do far worse than to emulate the efforts in consumer education that Barefaced has in the electric bass cab genre.