Markaudio linear array systems

[MoJoKe]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

PS I was getting a bit bored with so many anodyne threads running at the moment. It's nice to have a topic to get our teeth into which is also informative. Nothing wrong with a bit of passion so long as people remember their manners?

I am more than happy to apologise if people think I have been out of order.  Sorry folks; not normally my style.

I have been thinking back and realise that I have probably rarely if ever expressed a strong opinion here before at all, let alone a contentious one, on any threads here.  Sure I have commented and been involved in conversations, but I am absolutely certain I have never openly criticised anyone else's products and wouldn't.  Its below the belt and thats always going to pretty much guarantee a defensive response (for the record, as for bias, I am not employed by Markbass or Markaudio or their distribution, I am merely a self employed professional player and sound tech in the business, so these are not my products, I am being paid on a flat day rate to demonstrate them (no commission), so perhaps that could be interpreted as commercial interest, but no more than also being the bass player in a pro function band, hoping to have a fuller diary).

I normally avoid engaging in any topics which obviously turn into bashing and negativity, I don't need that in my life, but I am always open to constructive and helpful advice. BFM's first "unbiased technical advice" began with  "Its a variation on a Bose L1, and that is not a good thing....", or effectively "its rubbish, it won't work".  I asked if he had actually heard Markaudio in action, and on what was he basing this "expert" opinion....  he has still failed to respond.  He followed up saying all systems "like this one" are rubbish and won't work, as if de-personalising and this generalisation might soften the blow.  I would happily have taken my concern with his clear bias (however well intended and technically minded) and his generalistic and unnecessary comments to all here that "we don't know better" off line and PM'ed him, but he has messaging disabled, so I couldn't!  I would be very happy to see a debate about PA design, as it is a specific area of interest of mine (lets talk point source and tapped horns, now that would be a good discussion!), but in another place, not one that hijacks someone else's thread, and does nothing but undermine the point of the conversation.

As said, all the gear we all use is a compromise between form, function, price and quality.  Whether it fits with your opinion, the Markaudio (and lots of others too) are making a good job of bringing compact and good sounding equipment to the market.  Interestingly, as HJ found out today, what makes the Markaudio different, is that you CAN separate the top arrays from the subs.  You can quite easily run the subs in a cluster and locate the top arrays in another location, if it is your wish and the venue layout allows..  You can add further subs, you can add power amps and add more AC arrays, which can be flown from trusses, and build up quite a large (but still light and portable) system...  and it does work...  quite well in fact.

It is being used by a function band on Saturday night at a party I have been invited to.  I am not doing the sound, so I'll try and get some video to share here if that is of interest?

Edited March 8, 2018 by MoJoKe

[MoJoKe]

25 minutes ago, la bam said:

I know that sounds crazy but its true. These systems are also popular at ceremonies and wedding breakfast which is why discretion is essential.

I appreciate we are talking basses here and bands, but just trying to help them see from a different angle.

 

22 minutes ago, la bam said:

Id also imagine the same applies for solo singers and entertainers etc playing during ceremonies and meals etc. 

Perfectly valid and considered opinion.  I agree.  Its not going to appeal to everyone until they make a more discrete version with black covers or black drivers...

[LukeFRC]

3 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

Best ask Marco de Virgiliis ... I'm sure I have his phone number somewhere.

Personally I don't get hung up on numbers. I tend to rate cabs as being Too Quiet, Quiet, Loud, Bloody Loud, and WTF Do You Think You're Playing At You Pilloch.

 

Bass cabs yes, too a degree - PA cabs I think I am more interested in how flat the response is and how quickly they introduce distortion as the volume increases... cheap PA stuff can easily 'sound' loud that's what distortion does. Good stuff can be very loud without the distortion 

[MoJoKe]

Just now, LukeFRC said:

....PA cabs I think I am more interested in how flat the response is and how quickly they introduce distortion as the volume increases... cheap PA stuff can easily 'sound' loud that's what distortion does. Good stuff can be very loud without the distortion 

Yes. Cheap PA stuff pushes the harsher frequencies to sound louder, distort easily and are very tiring to the ears very quickly.

Good stuff can be loud without distortion.  Better stuff has great limiters which don't change the dynamics or sound compressed, they just keep the same great balanced flat response to the upper power limit of the system.

[fleabag]

Anyone ever wondered why car manufacturers  95% of the time all follow each other ?  See how they're almost all now gearing towards the SUV style ?

No one dares be different.  Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

MB established good products while daring to steer away from the equivalent of Institution Beige ( black )

I've owned MB cabs,  and in both yellow and black drivers ( New York 604 - black , New York 2x12 - yellow ) and i always preferred the yellow, because

thats their brand. YMMV of course, as it always does with personal taste.

 

[Geddys nose]

I did look at the Markbass stuff before I bought my last speakers, Most of the competitors make a big thing of getting it hooked up quickly with very little effort for the performer. The Markbass stuff looked very fiddly with the separate cables and different parts, even the demo videos looked like a lot of hassle setting it up.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, MoJoKe said:

 He followed up saying all systems "like this one" are rubbish and won't work, as if de-personalising and this generalisation might soften the blow.

what makes the Markaudio different, is that you CAN separate the top arrays from the subs.  You can quite easily run the subs in a cluster and locate the top arrays in another location, if it is your wish and the venue layout allows.

 

I was prepared to let this thread go, but ...I never said rubbish, or that they won't work. I did point out the shortcomings of systems of this type from a purely technical standpoint. If the subs can be easily remotely placed It would be most helpful if the marketing material made note of that, and the owner's manual as well. It would be even better if the manual pointed out the advantages of sub wall placement and clustering. But every picture in the advertising, the manual, and your own demonstration shows the mains atop the subs, the subs split and away from the wall.

As for the percentage of PA operators here who were previously aware that subs should be wall loaded and clustered whenever possible, and what the Power Alley is, do a poll. I venture it would be a very small percentage, because by no means are these technical aspects intuitively obvious. Knowing how to correctly do PA must be learned. It is most difficult to learn something that is not being taught. It certainly isn't being taught by the PA industry in general, and as the marketing and manuals are presently written, not by Markaudio. IMHO that makes Markaudio part of the problem. You now have the opportunity to make it part of the solution. Or continue to shoot at the messenger while ignoring the validity of the message.

 

[MoJoKe]

9 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 

IMHO that makes Markaudio part of the problem. You now have the opportunity to make it part of the solution. Or continue to shoot at the messenger while ignoring the validity of the message.... 

 

With respect, you pulled your gun first, randomly spring bullets, while only basing your high minded opinion on the limited info of a new product on the Markaudio website. You clearly have no first hand experience of this system so, while anyone here is welcome to "sound off" within the rules of the forum,  that renders your opinion at best rather weak. 

If you feel product or marketing changes should be made, I suggest you take that up with the manufacturer, not me.

[MoJoKe]

Regarding the joint issue of yellow speakers and vulnerability of the cones from probing fingers, I have just had an idea which I will feed back.

The whole array could quite easily be wrapped in an acoustically transparent stretchy black lycra "sock", hiding all contained from those who might be offended or abusive. Cheaper than making black ones, retaining the brand identity, and practical. It would also stop people putting their drinks/handbags on the subs... 

[EBS_freak]

44 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

Regarding the joint issue of yellow speakers and vulnerability of the cones from probing fingers, I have just had an idea which I will feed back.

The whole array could quite easily be wrapped in an acoustically transparent stretchy black lycra "sock", hiding all contained from those who might be offended or abusive. Cheaper than making black ones, retaining the brand identity, and practical. It would also stop people putting their drinks/handbags on the subs... 

Lycra condoms!

[JapanAxe]

13 hours ago, MoJoKe said:

It is being used by a function band on Saturday night at a party I have been invited to.  I am not doing the sound, so I'll try and get some video to share here if that is of interest?

That would be interesting to hear, though I fear the limitations of online AV might scupper our chances of hearing the system properly!

[EBS_freak]

Just a quick comment about correct sub placement, I don't know what it's like elsewhere - but most wedding venues round here (I'm guessing that's the main target for these array systems) simply wouldn't accommodate the central placed, wall coupled sub setup.

These arrays clearly aren't marketed at the pro end of the spectrum - they are for the guys that need to put a system in, get a good sound, play and leave. The setup at most has to be done usually in an hour or less and the complexity is low. Let's get real - people haven't got the time to SMAART those kinda gigs.

As for correct PA setup, it's been some time since I've seen a poor pro PA setup - certainly in the UK most pro PA companies with pro gear are seperate subs and top boxes and aligning in the manner that Bill is referring.

[MoJoKe]

7 minutes ago, JapanAxe said:

That would be interesting to hear, though I fear the limitations of online AV might scupper our chances of hearing the system properly!

Valid point, there's no way mobile phone footage will even get close to hearing it properly!  I do find that mobile footage will easily highlight any nasty loudness traits though!  it may also help to demonstrate how discrete they are in a function setting.  If anything useable and of value ensues, I'll share it here...

If you are in Swindon, might you make it to the SW Bash in Taunton on 8th April?

[JapanAxe]

1 hour ago, MoJoKe said:

If you are in Swindon, might you make it to the SW Bash in Taunton on 8th April?

You know what, I think I might do that! (Gig offers permitting, as ever...)

[stingrayPete1977]

1 hour ago, MoJoKe said:

Valid point, there's no way mobile phone footage will even get close to hearing it properly!  I do find that mobile footage will easily highlight any nasty loudness traits though!  it may also help to demonstrate how discrete they are in a function setting.  If anything useable and of value ensues, I'll share it here...

If you are in Swindon, might you make it to the SW Bash in Taunton on 8th April?

If it sounds good and the punters look to be enjoying themselves then it's done its job.

[Happy Jack]

6 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

... they are for the guys that need to put a system in, get a good sound, play and leave. The setup at most has to be done usually in an hour or less and the complexity is low.

And that just about nails it for me. If I was in the weddings market then who knows what route I'd go down? 

But I ain't. I play pubs. I set up between the Gents toilet and the dartboard, without getting in the way of the TV showing the footy / rugger / tennis / Olympics / whatever, and with everything powered from a single 13A socket which previously had the cigarette machine plugged into it (landlord's going to notice that eventually).

Simplicity & flexibility are massively important to me.

 

[EBS_freak]

14 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

And that just about nails it for me. If I was in the weddings market then who knows what route I'd go down? 

 

Probably the same

[yorks5stringer]

6 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Lycra condoms!

I have some old tights I could donate....

[Dad3353]

4 minutes ago, yorks5stringer said:

I have some old tights I could donate....

Nice of you, but won't you catch cold..? 

...

 

[yorks5stringer]

On a more serious note, I hope all this enthusiasm about the Markbass PA  system at the SW Bash does not impede us mere  Bassists who want to see and hear the new Bass Amplification from them...?

 

It will be warmer by the time of the Bash and I'll be in Spring sox....

[MoJoKe]

On 09/03/2018 at 17:40, yorks5stringer said:

On a more serious note, I hope all this enthusiasm about the Markbass PA  system at the SW Bash does not impede us mere  Bassists who want to see and hear the new Bass Amplification from them...?

 

It will be warmer by the time of the Bash and I'll be in Spring sox....

Worry not, I will have some Marcus Miller goodies and some cabs!

[MoJoKe]

The promised video....

This was filmed last night on my Samsung S8 using the phone's mic, I have uploaded it without any kind of processing....   this was in a marquee, I was about 8m from the band, and was measuring between 88 and 92db...  (I didn't do the sound, so don't shoot me if Clara's vocal was not high enough in the mix!).  I was surprised at how good my phone audio was!

 

 

[JapanAxe]

31 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

The promised video....

This was filmed last night on my Samsung S8 using the phone's mic, I have uploaded it without any kind of processing....   this was in a marquee, I was about 8m from the band, and was measuring between 88 and 92db...  (I didn't do the sound, so don't shoot me if Clara's vocal was not high enough in the mix!).  I was surprised at how good my phone audio was!

 

 

I can see kit is mic'd up - what other instruments were going through the PA?

[MoJoKe]

2 hours ago, JapanAxe said:

I can see kit is mic'd up - what other instruments were going through the PA?

Everything. All using in ears...  Keys DI'd,  The guitar player was using a Helix DI'd with no amp/cab.  The bass player had the only cab on stage but most of his volume through the PA....

Edited March 11, 2018 by MoJoKe

[Dan Dare]

On ‎07‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 19:31, Happy Jack said:

That was a helpful list. Not sure I'd have included LD in that company, and perhaps harsh on RCF to exclude the Evox, but there's certainly some interesting stuff there.

 

I auditioned the LD Maui and thought it good (especially for the price). Not a nice as what I ended up buying (which cost quite a bit more, so not really surprising), but perfectly decent. I did include the Evox, in my list, but in my suggestions for more budget end kit.