Compression - what's all the fuss about?

[Skol303]

18 minutes ago, Earbrass said:

In recent months I've attended several concerts (Philharmonia Orchestra, a violin duo, a solo pianist) where there were no compressors (or indeed any amplification) in evidence at all, despite it being, as others have pointed out above, a scientifically provable, unarguable fact that compression makes music sound better (it is, after all, a simple matter of the measurable behaviour of sound traveling through air). As far as I could tell, the only mechanism they had for managing their dynamics was to rely on the skill and musicianship of the individual players! Honestly, I felt embarrassed for them. I did ask one cellist whether she'd considered using a compression pedal to help her "sit better in the mix", but she just looked at me as if I was some kind of weirdo. Amateurs.

Clever comment! But in all seriousness there are of course reasons why classical musicians tend not to use compressors:

1. The first and most obvious is because they tend to play acoustic/unplugged and so there’s... err... no signal chain for the compressor to be linked into. That's quite a biggie, really. Compressors are definitely most transparent when there's nothing to plug them into. On occasions when classical musicians are mic'd up and their performances fed through a mixing desk, there'll certainly be some sneaky compression being applied to help manage the overall mix. But yeah, you won't find it being used on stomp-boxes at the musicians' feet.
2. Classical arrangements are written to avoid clashes between instruments of similar frequency. That’s not how composers think of it, they tend to think in terms of balancing tone and timbre, but it has the same end result. Very different to five tubby blokes belting out Moondance with instruments all fighting for the same frequency band.
3. Classical concerts tend to be performed in rooms with far better acoustics than your average Dog & Duck.

Other than that, yeah, classical musicians are mostly amateurs. Why anyone would waste their time with that sort of guff is beyond me  
 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Skol303

[Skol303]

15 minutes ago, Earbrass said:

...a scientifically provable, unarguable fact that compression makes music sound better.

Oh and I don't think anyone has said that compression makes music sound better. It just helps music 'fit together better when needed'.

School boy error; small yet significant difference; but you are forgiven  

[EBS_freak]

Isn't it about time that we posted something controversial up in a compressor thread....?

 

[ricksterphil]

16 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Well, I took out the bins, emptied the dishwasher and even took my weekly bath.   Afterwards I managed to get a really squashed sound just by twiddling the knobs.

As a result this one may be a keeper....

Bath once a week?....I'd give her the heave-ho if I were you!

[Cuzzie]

She baths regularly

me once a week at best - typical smelly boy I am

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow don’t be silly, there is no such thing, its all fables smoke and mirrors

[jrixn1]

16 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

Clever comment! But in all seriousness there are of course reasons why classical musicians tend not to use compressors:

1. The first and most obvious is because they tend to play acoustic/unplugged and so there’s... err... no signal chain for the compressor to be linked into. That's quite a biggie, really. Compressors are definitely most transparent when there's nothing to plug them into. On occasions when classical musicians are mic'd up and their performances fed through a mixing desk, there'll certainly be some sneaky compression being applied to help manage the overall mix. But yeah, you won't find it being used on stomp-boxes at the musicians' feet.
2. Classical arrangements are written to avoid clashes between instruments of similar frequency. That’s not how composers think of it, they tend to think in terms of balancing tone and timbre, but it has the same end result. Very different to five tubby blokes belting out Moondance with instruments all fighting for the same frequency band.
3. Classical concerts tend to be performed in rooms with far better acoustics than your average Dog & Duck.

 

I don't currently use a compressor.

I'm perfectly happy with my on-stage sound.

It is a nine-piece band with horns, and the music is arranged for that line-up.

Most gigs are weddings/functions (often not great venues acoustically) and we always have a sound engineer - well, it's the bandleader - but he is the one out front listening to and adjusting the mix.

Should I add compressor to my pedal board?  Would I possibly be hindering the sound engineer's job by adding compression "at source", rather than give him my raw/unprocessed signal for him to sculpt as he sees fit? Or by adding my own compression would I be actually making his job easier?
 

[Cuzzie]

2 choices - if it ain’t broke and all are happy, nowt to fix.

If you wanna see if it makes it better go ahead, but don’t use it once super maxed and then say, pah it’s no good. Take time to tinker, find what works for you and your playing and your band and then see.

A day not going forwards is a day going backwards

[Skol303]

1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

It is a nine-piece band with horns, and the music is arranged for that line-up... Should I add compressor to my pedal board?  Would I possibly be hindering the sound engineer's job by adding compression "at source", rather than give him my raw/unprocessed signal for him to sculpt as he sees fit? Or by adding my own compression would I be actually making his job easier?
 

Good question. And that sounds like a great band, by the way!

If you have a sound engineer on your team who knows the band well (you mention the band leader) and if you're not familiar with using compression yourself, then I'd leave it up to him. It's always best if one person has the role of adjusting the band's sound as a whole.

BUT... (that's a big but)...  there's nothing stopping you from using compression to shape your individual tone; it can be used for that purpose (the classic "fattening" effect) leaving your band leader to then mix your compressed signal in with the rest of the band - even applying a second compressor whilst doing so if he wishes.

^ Good comments from Cuzzie above too.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Skol303

[Kevin Dean]

I wish I had never read this topic , Now I can't decide if I like compression or not ..grrrrr!!!!

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, Kevin Dean said:

I wish I had never read this topic , Now I can't decide if I like compression or not ..grrrrr!!!!

Interesting - so what's making you re-evaluate the use compression?

[Kevin Dean]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Interesting - so what's making you re-evaluate the use compression?

I use it as an extreme effect on some Tony Levin /Gabriel stuff  & never had used it in a subtle way , I can hear what it's doing but just don't know if I like it or not ?  

[SH73]

I've  never used a compressor in a live situation as I don't gig anymore. BUT I used my Peavey BW combo on stage as a teenager and it had a compression knob which made it louder when cranked up. I didn't know back then what it was and neither I'm an expert nowadays.

I use compression post recording gently and own a TC electronics spectracomp which I occasionally use as an effect.

Tbh I wouldn't care less what an average Pub goer would think and with pubs accoustics I couldn't tell  if a bass player switched one off.

[Bluewine]

On 3/10/2018 at 04:01, Al Krow said:

Haha!

Yes they certainly do!

But on this (and many other things) Blue

My dear chap, I can't speak for you. 

The US is a different kettle of fish

On many things, that much we can agree is true?

 

@NancyJohnson the Philistines were much under-rated methinks. History is written by the victors.

Lot's of varibles, even in the States. 

What we do and what happens in our Midwest for bar bands can be different on the east and west coat.

For me and other Seniors still gigging so many things have changed, attitudes, what motivates musicians, disipline the list goes on.

The main thing that bugs me are those that don't see the value in learning to play material correctly. If you want to switch things up and add your own spin after you know a song that's fine. But starting out derrière backwards is not my disipline.

Blue

[Bluewine]

I recently removed my EBS Multi-Comp from my chain.

Never really understood how it worked or what it was suppose to be doing.

If I can't hear a difference it's worthless to me.

Blue

[Cuzzie]

@Bluewine the use of compression has absolutely nothing to do with learning to play the material correctly or not, that is plainly not learning to play the material properly.

If you are of the opinion that compression, or those that use it are trying to mask that, then that is derrière backwards thinking

[Bluewine]

4 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Bluewine the use of compression has absolutely nothing to do with learning to play the material correctly or not, that is plainly not learning to play the material properly.

If you are of the opinion that compression, or those that use it are trying to mask that, then that is derrière backwards thinking

My comment was directed at cultural differences nationally and internationally for bar bands not compression.

Blue

[Cuzzie]

Then whole whole hearted apologies for getting the wrong end of the sticky stick.

IMHO - there is one culture and that’s Human Nature

[Bluewine]

6 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

IMHO - there is one culture and that’s Human Nature

Well , I can't debate the one.

However, we have a 4 hour bar band busines culture and I understand your Pub business is more like 2 hours.

Blue

Edited March 13, 2018 by Bluewine

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

If I can't hear a difference it's worthless to me.

Do you know that is entirely fair.

Even the 'experts' amongst us are forever saying 'use your ears' to get the right setting / 'sweet' spot when adjusting your compressor to get to the optimal setting.

There have been some blood*y good bass players in some pretty decent bands on this and other compressor threads who have said they can't hear any difference when they've tried compressors out.

And if they can't hear a difference, what chance our band-mates and even less our audiences?

But...just maybe that was down to the first of your comments?

15 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

Never really understood how it worked or what it was suppose to be doing.

 

[Skol303]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

There have been some blood*y good bass players in some pretty decent bands on this and other compressor threads who have said they can't hear any difference when they've tried compressors out.

Then whilst they may be bloody good bass players, it’s fair to say they are bloody inexperienced when it comes to sound engineering.

Which is perfectly fine. We can’t all be good at everything  

[grandad]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

[Dad3353]

There's none as deaf as those who won't hear.

[51m0n]

13 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Do you know that is entirely fair.

Even the 'experts' amongst us are forever saying 'use your ears' to get the right setting / 'sweet' spot when adjusting your compressor to get to the optimal setting.

There have been some blood*y good bass players in some pretty decent bands on this and other compressor threads who have said they can't hear any difference when they've tried compressors out.

And if they can't hear a difference, what chance our band-mates and even less our audiences?

But...just maybe that was down to the first of your comments?

 

I am an expert here on compression, and I can categorically say that sometimes I cant hear it, out of the context of a mix. Because you just cant, not a 'transparent' compressor with a soft knee set to just pull everything up a couple of dB on the softer stuff especially in parallel. Good luck to anyone who can, you're definitely not normal.

But put that in the context of a mix and if you know what to listen for you can hear the difference the compressor makes.

So why bother if its that hard to consciously perceive?

Because perception isn't conscious, psychoacoustics are hugely important and influential and definitely can make a band sound far more pro than the level of the venue they are playing in.

Lets put it another way, would you rather an expert live engineer use everything at his disposal to make your band sound as brilliant as possible regardless of the venue, or would you prefer him to keep some of his tools in the box? Do you think your  punters would tell the difference between Dave the drummer throwing some faders up on a shitty 6 channel Behringer desk and Wes 'The Wesernator' Maebe with a Midas Pro One and some choice outboard? What about Wes using the same desk as Dave and a few choice dynamics tools? I reckon Wes could make my band sound better live than I can with the same gear literally anywhere, he's the absolute canine undercarriage at his job, so I'd be some kind of an idiot if I didn't feel that.

What does he use to achieve this? Simple, the basics that every sound engineer understands: good mic placement, good gain structure, good dynamics control, good spacial and additive effects, great musical understanding, great ears. He will use compression all over your bass to make it work in the mix better, think I'm kidding, check this out and especially this where he daisy chains two 1176s, the man is a master of compression, its his bread and butter.

So what does this have to do with the OP question?

Its simply the wrong question. It actually shows why most bassists probably shouldn't be trying to use compression, because it breaks down like this:-

The audience should not generally be able to tell that a compressor is being used per se, but they will know that something is different if you turn it on and off. It depends on what the compression is for. A transparent gain riding compressor is going to work at a psychoacoustic level.

On the other hand if you are using a compressor to drastically change the envelope of your bass sound then every single punter will hear the change as you swap it in and out.

Its just a daft question really.

Think like a bassist and you cant tell what its for, think like a sound engineer and you cant imagine a world without compressors on nearly everything.

 

 

[Cuzzie]

Canine undercarriage made me laff!