Compression - what's all the fuss about?

[PaulWarning]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Like the fact that you've tried the thing out in action - cheers for that. What comp were you using or was it a Zoom patch and, if so, what patch / setting did you have it on?

Fyi @Osiris (I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning) has been getting some great results with the Zoom patches especially with the 160 comp modelled on the DBX 160a which he'd previously dismissed as too polite for his tastes but now seems to have found the 'sweet spot' where it adds bags of punch. His precise settings remain a trade secret 'cos they only work with his particular rig and playing style so you'll just have to use your ears, although even some experts e.g. @51m0n have pointed out that they can't actually hear any difference when using the more transparent comps (at which point it basically becomes guess work, right?! )

I was using the Zoom 160 comp, threshhold on -32, ratio 5 (5:1?) gain 6, soft knee and level on 100, which means is the neutral  setting, mostly.

[Al Krow]

Ok that's interesting that you're both getting such different results using exactly the same patch. Thanks for sharing your settings - that'll make it easy to try out on my own Zoom and A/B how your settings stack up against the Cali 76CB on my board.

[dave_bass5]

37 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I was using the Zoom 160 comp, threshhold on -32, ratio 5 (5:1?) gain 6, soft knee and level on 100, which means is the neutral  setting, mostly.

This is the setting i use, also in to the BDDI patch. I just love this tone. Its only in to headphones at home though, but it was my stock B3n tone for ages until i started using my pedal board in to the B3n.

@Al KrowYour going down the exact route i went a few months ago. The Cali will (IMO) blow the B3n comp away, but in my case, for home playing, it was never enough to warrant getting the Cali hooked up. Most of the time id just use the B3n comps with their default settings, and quite liked what i heard, but the dBX just seemed to be less noticeable and quieter.

Edited March 17, 2018 by dave_bass5

[Cuzzie]

Sounds like a typical scenario of too much compression squashing the life out of a sound, and thus proves the point on its uses.

Sharing exact settings is a pointless exercise, obviously videos like the ones shared earlier in the thread about the Dr Pepper setting give a starting point, but even then each instrument/voice needs its own tinker to balance and the gentleman in the video says as much. 

I wouldn’t say it’s guesswork in what you say above. If you actually take the time to research yourself how something works, and then take time to apply it practically then you may not ‘hear’ the difference because you just instantly know, but there will be a difference as you would have made one in making it sit amongst many variables.

Its similar to this, one of the great sportsmen replied to a question when it was suggested he had a lucky break, “it’s funny, the more I practice the luckier I get....”

Edited March 17, 2018 by Cuzzie

[Osiris]

9 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Fyi @Osiris (I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning) has been getting some great results with the Zoom patches especially with the 160 comp modelled on the DBX 160a which he'd previously dismissed as too polite for his tastes but now seems to have found the 'sweet spot' where it adds bags of punch. His precise settings remain a trade secret 'cos they only work with his particular rig and playing style so you'll just have to use your ears, although even some experts e.g. @51m0n have pointed out that they can't actually hear any difference when using the more transparent comps (at which point it basically becomes guess work, right?! )

@Al Krow I don't mind being quoted, it's being misquoted that I object to. 

My settings are not a trade secret at all, but as I have tried - and seemingly failed - to explain that, different basses have different signal output strengths and different fundamental tones. These mean that you'll need to optimise your compression settings for each different bass you use in addition to factoring in other variables such as your right hand plucking strength (I'm somewhat ham fisted whereas you attack the strings with the angst and venom of an asthmatic tapeworm) and any tonal characteristics of your amp/cab/speakers etc.

What this all means that my settings almost certainly won't work for you*.

So for the record, my settings for the 160 Comp on my B3 are; THRSH -32, Ratio 2.8, Gain 10, Knee Soft, Level 88.  

* For example, you often wax lyrical about the aggressive sounds of your Ibanez but if you set your compressor up with the settings that work with my warm, mellow sounding Sandberg as above, you'll start yet another thread/poll/campaign to tell the world that you have once again "proved" that compression is an urban myth and the likes of @Skol303, @51m0n and myself will lose the collective will to live.

Again. 

 etc. 

The best thing to do is to try it for yourself and find the settings that work for you with your gear. It really is that simple.

There, I've said it. I feel cleansed. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Osiris

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, Osiris said:

The most important thing for me, by a country mile, in your cleansing post, is how the heck you got this emoji: 

It's superb! 

 

[Osiris]

20 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The most important thing for me, by a country mile, in your cleansing post, is how the heck you got this emoji: 

It's superb! 

That's another secret privy only to those that need to know. So don't earn yourself another spanking so soon.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Osiris

[PaulWarning]

7 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

This is the setting i use, also in to the BDDI patch. I just love this tone. Its only in to headphones at home though, but it was my stock B3n tone for ages until i started using my pedal board in to the B3n.

@Al Krow

I agree, I use different settings for home practice with headphones, it's a different ball game entirely when using a bass rig at volume in a band situation

[Kevin Dean]

I have a Zoom B3  &  my roland GR55 has plenty of compression options , But I've found that the one on my Ashdown ABM left on at half way  , for my band gives a great low end punch with the bass drum & I'm not getting jumps in volume  when I change tone .  I'm going to leave it on for the next few gigs .

 

[Al Krow]

9 hours ago, Osiris said:

That's another secret privy only to those that need to know. 

Cut and paste is a wonderful thing. Ask Shakespeare.

53 minutes ago, Kevin Dean said:

I have a Zoom B3  &  my roland GR55 has plenty of compression options , But I've found that the one on my Ashdown ABM left on at half way  , for my band gives a great low end punch with the bass drum & I'm not getting jumps in volume  when I change tone .  I'm going to leave it on for the next few gigs .

That's good to hear - I think earlier in the thread you mentioned you were having volume issues on your Ashdown which you seem to have sorted? And you were also using compression in a more extreme way that you weren't sure about. Sounds like you've changed tack and it's working a treat!

[BreadBin]

Much like the problem some people have with traction control in cars - if you take the time to learn about it and work with it then it can be a useful tool. However if you either don't understand how it works or use it properly it feels obstructive and unnatural. 

 

[dannybuoy]

@Al Krow Change the drop-down category option under emojjis to 'default' and you will get some extra ones...

[Kevin Dean]

12 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Cut and paste is a wonderful thing. Ask Shakespeare.

That's good to hear - I think earlier in the thread you mentioned you were having volume issues on your Ashdown which you seem to have sorted? And you were also using compression in a more extreme way that you weren't sure about. Sounds like you've changed tack and it's working a treat!

It Still does effect the volume even on low levels , But I'm just going to leave it on as I just want it to tighten my sound & not change it , If that makes any sense . I use  a different compressor on my GR55 for effect on one song .

[Lozz196]

I remember years ago in my old punk covers band, I bought a cheapie Behringer DC-9 compressor. The guitarist was late as usual so the rest of us were playing, when he stuck his head in and remarked "bought yourself a compressor, Lozz?". He could tell the difference, from outside the room. Whereas the three of us in the room, I`m not sure we could. And I suppose that`s the crux of it, it`s what the listener hears that`s important, and maybe up-close I couldn`t tell the difference but further away I would have. Who knows.

[stewblack]

I'm only wading through this topic in the hopes of learning about compression. I would therefore like to thank those who have posted calmly and rationally and shared their knowledge.

As for the OP, I can't tell you if an audience would notice or not but I can share one little tale from my years of bass playing. Packed house, lively gig band steaming along nicely. Suddenly a thingy came adrift inside my amp (my tech savvy mate fixed it and glued it in place, been fine ever since) the immediately apparent effect of the loose thingy was to reduce my previously warm, rounded yet punchy and dynamic bass sound to a terrible quacking fart such as a giant duck might produce were it to have imbibed with undue vigour of Mr Perrets Traditional Stout. The actual volume remained reasonably consistent but the tortured distorted sound was like the world's worst fuzz box put through broken speakers. I have never produced a more dreadful noise on stage either before or since.

Now, the moral of the story is this. I soldiered on, ashen faced through the final numbers of the set, the only saving grace being that there wasn't long left to play. When we finished and a happy appreciative audience was congratulating us no one knew why I was apologising for the bass sound. I mean no one. Not the paying public, not my mate who had a special interest in the rhythm section and was stood near my side of the room, and yes, you've guessed it, not one member of my band noticed anything amiss.

So polling us based on what an audience does or doesn't notice, seems to me a little unlikely to achieve much. Still, I shall be pressing the compressor button on my amp in future so this thread has been useful, if a little painful at times. 

There'senough anger in the world. We could try meeting it with love maybe. Just a thought.

[Cuzzie]

I’ll start

 

🤗

[Kevin Dean]

A couple of comments were that the band sounded tighter but it wasn't obvious that it was down to compression on the bass .

[dave_bass5]

I’m confused. If its said you cant obviously tell if a good compressor is working, how can you tell if its not, especially in a band mix?

Edited March 18, 2018 by dave_bass5

[51m0n]

14 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

I’m confused. If its said you cant obviously tell if a good compressor is working, how can you tell if its not, especially in a band mix?

A lot of practice

[Al Krow]

54 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

...I find the TC Electronic tone prints to work better for me...I can't honestly say if I find it as transparent as the Cali...I really need to get in to the tone editor at seem point, but for now i just turn it on and leave it at whatever its set at from before.

In fact last night I hadn't noticed i was turning it on and off by mistake when I was using one of my large feet to turn my Aftershock on and off. The two are so close i was hitting both by mistake. No one said anything, and even I didn't notice until I looked down and saw the light was off......but that's for another thread lol.

Maybe this thread? I hope you've ticked the "no one noticed" option on the poll?  

On 19/03/2018 at 13:12, 51m0n said:

A lot of practice

Or, Dave, you could just do a lot of practice (and become an even better bass player)?

On that subject, I'd best quickly get back to learning some new set numbers, before I get set upon by the comp police and their enforcers.. 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Al Krow

[dave_bass5]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Maybe this thread? I hope you've ticked the "no one noticed" option on the poll?  

Or, Dave, you could just do a lot of practice (and become an even better bass player)?

On that subject, I'd best quickly get back to learning some new set numbers, before I get set upon by the comp police and their enforcers.. 

 

Nah, i meant i could start another thread, that seems to be the norm on here :-)

I need to find a band worthy of my compressor lol.

 

[tauzero]

Thanks to Osiris and PaulWarning for their comments on the Zoom 160 Comp effect - I've got both a B3n and a MS-60B, which get used at assorted different times but with the same bass/amp/cab, and the only compressor that they have in common is the 160 Comp. It's nice to know that it actually does work (I did wonder how well a modelled compressor would work) and that it's effective. I would like to know what I should listen for when trying to sort the settings out for it though. I'm pretty certain I want a soft knee, and I suppose I should set the level so a note plucked at average intensity sounds the same volume when the compressor is switched on or off, but I don't know about threshold or ratio. Ah, just searched for 51m0n's Compression 101 post and found his (lost but archived) blog post on the subject: http://web.archive.org/web/20130215154741/http://blog.basschat.co.uk/setting-up-a-compressor/ which is more useful than the post I was thinking of, https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/30431-is-a-compressor-of-any-real-value-in-fast-rock-music/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-1148269

[Osiris]

42 minutes ago, tauzero said:

I would like to know what I should listen for when trying to sort the settings out for it though. 

This is a difficult question to give a single definitive answer to, unfortunately! I'm sure that the likes of 51m0n and Skol can give you some far more informed advice than I can here but here's a few pointers/guidelines to help get your started. 

There are many variables that can have an impact here e.g. the instrument you play, the type and amount of compression you want (i.e. just a touch of dynamic control, some tonal shaping, say a punchy mid-range, the other instruments you're playing with etc.) 

Setting up compression can be very difficult especially if it's just the bass in isolation and not playing along with other instruments. This is where I suspect some people think it's not doing anything and then set up so they can noticeably hear the squash, but by that time you have killed all of your dynamic range. Try setting it up at a rehearsal when playing along with other people as it'll be easier to get it right without completely flattening the bass dynamics. 

The main thing to listen out for is a consistency or evenness of the bass throughout its range in the mix, so the low notes are not overpowering and the higher notes stand out and are clearly audible too. Your lowest notes will will be as even as the highest ones.

The Threshold is the point at which the compressor starts to squash; anything exceeding the threshold will be compressed, anything that falls short of it will remain uncompressed. For me, I like to have this set so that the compressor kicks in on the lower notes to stop them overpowering the higher notes.

The Ratio is the amount of squash that is applied to the signal once it passes the threshold. Too much and your bass gets too squashed, too little and you may find that things are still uneven. Getting the Threshold and Ratio right are the main things to focus on for now. Try experimenting with the extremes of the range of both the Threshold and Ratio so you get a feel what each of them does. Once you understand what's going on start backing them off until you find the point where they are enhancing the bass and making it more consistent in the mix but you still have dynamic range and subtlety. It's not an easy thing to explain what exactly to listen out for but once you have found what works for you, you'll start to be able to hear and feel it when setting it up for another bass, for example. 

Things like attack and release times and hard/soft knee setting are also important but I'd focus on the threshold and ratio for now. 

Hope this helps 

[PaulWarning]

another starting point for compressor set up is to set everything to 12 o clock, the mid way point, and take it from there

[Al Krow]

For those of you who don't frequent the Effects thread, it would still be good to hear from you: