Landlord can "get bands for free", oh no.

[Sibob]

Originals bands don't play for free (assuming they have any kind of management acumen) as a default. They will have a price they go out for (or they should do), which will be set to a scale around how many punters they pull in. That will often be less than covers band at lower levels because landlords simply make the assumption that punters will 'enjoy songs they know rather than new songs'......usually not based on any evidence at all. I would suggest that if a band is good enough, punters who are either into music, or very drunk, will dance to anything.

Foo Fighters are an originals band, they get paid......"Don't be dumb, they're the Foo Fighters".......so? Still just an originals band, but happen to be very successful because people gave them the time of day. I know originals bands now who go out for a circa £1000 or more a show, because they pull in a decent crowd at Academy sized venues....they work hard and are popular.

The decline in record sales is not down to a decline in bands, it's because of streaming, it really is simple as that.
Decline in venues? Much more likely to be because of external factors such as locals complaining about noise AFTER they've moved to the area than a lack of bands/money for them. Read about Agent Of Change and why it's incredibly important for our industry: http://musicvenuetrust.com/2014/09/what-is-agent-of-change-and-why-is-it-important/

This incredibly inaccurate view of 'oh there's no good rock music about at the moment because of the internetz' is also as misleading as originals bands playing for free as a default. There's a ridiculous amount of good music currently, young up and coming bands, but people are generally too lazy to use the 'interwebz' to seek it out.

Back on topic. Has anyone actually seen the website the landlord is talking about? I'd put money down that it doesn't exist and the landlord is using it as some idiotic bargaining chip for the bands he talks to.

Si

Edited March 12, 2018 by Sibob

[Steve Browning]

9 minutes ago, Sibob said:

Back on topic. Has anyone actually seen the website the landlord is talking about? I'd put money down that it doesn't exist and the landlord is using it as some idiotic bargaining chip for the bands he talks to.

Si

The cynic in me thought the very same thing.

[Dad3353]

52 minutes ago, Twigman said:

So how many of you gig for free?

Why?

Confession time

Some of us don't need, nor want the money; it's as simple as that. Confession..? Confess to what..? 

[stingrayPete1977]

47 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Me - cos it always kicks off a great bass chat thread.

I presume you've worked out which venue this is? 

[ambient]

1 hour ago, Twigman said:

So how many of you gig for free?

Why?

Confession time

 

 

There was a thread a while back. I personally was truly shocked how many people do, or should I say how little value so many people attribute to what they do.

[stingrayPete1977]

The sad thing with this venue is that there wasn't a decline, it was almost always a busy night where people went knowing there was a band on, it wasn't trying to attract the originals scene rather just a fun night out. 

[PaulWarning]

13 minutes ago, Sibob said:

Originals bands don't play for free (assuming they have any kind of management acume) as a default. They will have a price they go out for (or they should do), which will be set to a scale around how many punters they pull in. That will often be less than covers band at lower levels because landlords simply make the assumption that punters will 'enjoy songs they know rather than new songs'......usually not based on any evidence at all. I would suggest that if a band is good enough, punters who are either into music, or very drunk, will dance to anything.

Foo Fighters are an originals band, they get paid......"Don't be dumb, they're the Foo Fighters".......so? Still just an originals band, but happen to be very successful because people gave them the time of day. I know originals bands now who go out for a circa £1000 or more a show, because they pull in a decent crowd at Academy sized venues....they work hard and are popular.

The decline in record sales is not down to a decline in bands, it's because of streaming, it really is simple as that.
Decline in venues? Much more likely to be because of external factors such as locals complaining about noise AFTER they've moved to the area than a lack of bands/money for them. Read about Agent Of Change and why it's incredibly important for our industry: http://musicvenuetrust.com/2014/09/what-is-agent-of-change-and-why-is-it-important/

This incredibly inaccurate view of 'oh there's no good rock music about at the moment because of the internetz' is also as misleading as originals bands playing for free as a default. There's a ridiculous amount of good music currently, young up and coming bands, but people are generally too lazy to use the 'interwebz' to seek it out.

Back on topic. Has anyone actually seen the website the landlord is talking about? I'd put money down that it doesn't exist and the landlord is using it as some idiotic bargaining chip for the bands he talks to.

Si

record sales have been in decline since the hey day of the 70's way before streaming, it has become harder to assess popularity of music because of streaming, but venues are closing because they can't make money out of music, because not enough punters want to attend, simple as that

[stingrayPete1977]

10 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Some of us don't need, nor want the money; it's as simple as that. Confession..? Confess to what..? 

For all my jibes I totally get why you'd do your bit for the local village or town but would you drive fifty miles round trip and set up the pa and lights then play for up to three hours for free in a venue you've never been to because a landlord asked you to?

[stingrayPete1977]

Personally I've never been in an originals band that could do the two to the hours of original only material to take the gig on anyway. 

[Dad3353]

7 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

For all my jibes I totally get why you'd do your bit for the local village or town but would you drive fifty miles round trip and set up the pa and lights then play for up to three hours for free in a venue you've never been to because a landlord asked you to?

I've done it before and, health permitting, would do it again. Why the question..? Is it so hard to 'get'..? Some folks travel half-way round the world to play a round of golf.

[Sibob]

5 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

record sales have been in decline since the hey day of the 70's way before streaming, it has become harder to assess popularity of music because of streaming, but venues are closing because they can't make money out of music, because not enough punters want to attend, simple as that

I'm not sure I agree with you on that, have you got some data to back it up? If you'd said record sales have been in decline since 2000, I'd agree! But since the 70's? It's like CD's didn't exist in your world?! .
The decline from 2000s onwards is because of the internet and Napster blah blah blah. However there are some studies that suggest the purchase of music is the highest its ever been, but that it simply sells for a lot less now, skewing the 'consumption vs commercial worth' figures. Remember that music is often purchased directly from the artist now too, not through labels etc, so whilst artists are able to more directly monetise their art.....the 'business' side of things feels the hit. Arguably not a bad thing....."What's the problem with the music business??.....the 'business' part of it"
The model is simply completely different, talk to Steve Lawson, I think he ran some numbers on some of his 'pay what you want' albums, and it averaged out at something like £7. That's a lot of people downloading for free, and a lot paying much more than £7.

I'd also argue that a venue that closes down because of a decline in punters seeing music, doesn't have it's business model quite right. A pub that has covers bands will be a pub that is popular and uses it's band night as an added extra. A venue that runs originals nights will almost certainly always outsource the management of that night to a local promoter and charge that promoter for hiring the venue.....ie they get their money regardless. If no promoter is interested in taking that on, chances are they aren't a dedicated music venue and should have other revenue streams to cover the deficit.....ie a pub. Do we see Academy venues closing because 'no-ones interested in music'? No, they're often sold out most nights of the week with touring ORIGINAL acts.

Si

[EBS_freak]

24 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I presume you've worked out which venue this is? 

Without mentioning the name, that place diagonally opposite the doot, de, doot, doot,... doot?

Or are we talking that place which is as light as?

[dannybuoy]

Here we go again...

It's a whole different ball game if you're a recognised band, with albums and enough fans too fill a venue. Of course they wouldn't, and shouldn't, play for free.

If you don't have a big following or a lot of material, you tend to play multi band nights where there are 4 or 5 bands on doing 30 to 45 minute sets. Each band might only bring a handful of people along with them. Default is usually to not get paid, promoter might throw them a bone if they've travelled a long way, and give them a cut of the entry fees if they happened to bring a bus load of fans down. Bands are usually happy with this arrangement as it's the only way they can get a gig.

[Max Normal]

Let this venue go. The fact is only crap bands will play there if they are not paying, probably a bunch of inexperienced teenagers and their mates.  Real music fans will avoid the place for both of the aforementioned reasons and the pub will go into decline. If you want to make an income as a venue, the term "speculate to accumulate" is very relevent here, very few decent acts will play for nothing.

So far as payment goes, in my experience having played in both, most original bands sell tickets and and charge an entry fee on the door while covers bands get paid by the pub. If they are any good original bands will make money eventually, at least cover their costs.

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Max Normal

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Twigman said:

So how many of you gig for free?

Why?

Confession time

 

 

It depends. If I'm playing a function, such as a wedding, where I'm playing what people want, then of course not. However, If I'm doing something for my own sake (perhaps in a situation where I play in an "originals band" and we want to try to create awareness, gain audience, etc, then, if we think the gig may be useful in that regard, yes. Also, I play in another band that made up of experienced players, who are well past the first flush of youth (all 60+). We like to get together once in a while and play for fun. We are fortunate in that we don't need to earn money at every possible opportunity. So if  something that looks as if it will be enjoyable comes along (and it isn't going to make a lot of money for the event organiser or anyone involved), we'll do it for the hell of it if they ask nicely and buy us a drink or two.

7 hours ago, bazzbass said:

then that is the fault of all of you for not supporting original music. If EVERYBODY played in cover bands, who is gonna write the music for them to copy?

Original bands here get more than half a dozen friends, don't be so condescending. Go out and see one yourself, you might hear something new lol

See my comment above. There is little "original music" in the world. There may be stuff that someone has written recently, but that often isn't "original". "Derivative music" might be a better term for much of it. As for "hearing something new",  at the age of 64 and having been playing since my teens (including stints where I made a living out of it), that doesn't happen all that often and certainly not at these venues that put on "new bands", singer/songwriters et al.

[mike257]

31 minutes ago, Sibob said:

Do we see Academy venues closing because 'no-ones interested in music'? No, they're often sold out most nights of the week with touring ORIGINAL acts.

Having worked as part of the technical team in a venue that was independent, then part of the MAMA group and eventually changed hands to AMG (the Academy overlords), I'm afraid the reality is that the big regular club nights keep the lights on and the doors open at these places and without them, the gigs alone often wouldn't sustain the place financially. 

[EBS_freak]

Just now, mike257 said:

Having worked as part of the technical team in a venue that was independent, then part of the MAMA group and eventually changed hands to AMG (the Academy overlords), I'm afraid the reality is that the big regular club nights keep the lights on and the doors open at these places and without them, the gigs alone often wouldn't sustain the place financially. 

Indeed! There's very few places that could - and indeed do so - nowadays. Nobody is interested in pre-fame band like there were in yesteryear.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Personally I've never been in an originals band that could do the two to the hours of original only material to take the gig on anyway. 

As a punter I don't think I'd want to see ANY originals band play for 2 hours. I'd find it unbearably boring. Even bands I've liked for years that have 4 or 5 albums (at least) of decent material to draw upon, would be hard work after the first hour.

[Max Normal]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

As a punter I don't think I'd want to see ANY originals band play for 2 hours. I'd find it unbearably boring. Even bands I've liked for years that have 4 or 5 albums (at least) of decent material to draw upon, would be hard work after the first hour.

Yes, bands that are not so well known tend to go on a multi-band lineup or at least have a support act where I am.  For example one of the popular originals venues in Winchester has 3 bands on a gig night. The variety is great and it's never boring.

[stingrayPete1977]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Without mentioning the name, that place diagonally opposite the doot, de, doot, doot,... doot?

Or are we talking that place which is as light as?

 

Glass ceiling, cobbled floor.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

58 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

As a punter I don't think I'd want to see ANY originals band play for 2 hours. I'd find it unbearably boring. Even bands I've liked for years that have 4 or 5 albums (at least) of decent material to draw upon, would be hard work after the first hour.

Take into account this venue has no stage or PA system and it really isn't suited to originals imo, paid or unpaid. 

[Conan]

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

 

Glass ceiling, cobbled floor.

 

 

Oh jeez! Well that would explain why the quality of the music has gone down to beyond shyte. Mind you, he's always been a funny one in there.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Take into account this venue has no stage or PA system and it really isn't suited to originals imo, paid or unpaid. 

Punters walk through the centre of the band to go for a ciggie for crying out loud. Mind you, the bogs are fully representative of an originals venue. Always been wary of the plug feeding the stage has been situated right where the punters are sitting.

[Lozz196]

3 hours ago, Max Normal said:

Let this venue go. The fact is only crap bands will play there if they are not paying, probably a bunch of inexperienced teenagers and their mates.  Real music fans will avoid the place for both of the aforementioned reasons and the pub will go into decline.

 

 

Spot on. A venue my old covers band used to play had a change of landlord/landlady, and decided that £300 was far too much to be paying to bands, so reduced it to £120. Instead of bands worth £300 that brought in 150 paying customers they got bands that weren`t probably worth £120, bringing in 20 paying customers.

Didn`t take the brewery long to realise, and now the new landlord, a musician himself, has bands almost every night and it`s back to its best as a music venue again.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Lozz196