Reverb pedal - quite specific though

[radiophonic]

Once again I find myself with pedal GAS. I've joined a Shoegaze band and I've been developing sounds for synth-bass washes and pads. I can get pretty close to what I need using a Bitcrusher / Filter and a couple of delays but I really want to use reverb.  Specifically, Octave-up reverb ('pad' / 'shimmer' or whatever) and Reverse options.  Everyone and their dog seems to be doing shimmer these days, but reverse seems like a harder goal. I don't want to spend a ton of money, but the only contender I've found in the 100 - 150 quid (new) ballpark is the DigiTech Polara. However, from the limited bass demos I've heard, the shimmer ('Halo') effect seems significantly less pronounced than with other versions of the effect. The illegible font for the knob settings are a downer too!  Are there other options I've missed?  Forget Strymon, Meris, Source etc - very nice indeed, but too much money and my Octave down needs an upgrade as well! 

[Osiris]

The Zoom MS-60B has reverse reverb (as well as a reverse delay) plus a whole load of other reverbs too, and a ton of other effects too. These were included in the firmware update that was released last year. Plus it's within your budget. 

But whether it'll give you want you want is another matter 

[radiophonic]

@Osiris - Is your last comment in relation to the overall tonality / SQ of the unit? It did occur to me that I could pick up an old FX500 for about 70 quid from ebay and either buy a simple latching footswitch or stick it in the loop of an LS2 to give me instant Soft Focus / Reverse. No shimmer, but that's easier to address. A bit bulky but genre 'authentic'. 

[BigRedX]

How can you do backwards reverb in a pedal?

On recordings this effect is created by reversing the audio file/tape, passing it through a reverb unit, recording the results and then playing everything back in the correct direction, giving the effect of the reverb fading up into the sound. This can't be done in real time without first having invented time-travel (even if it's only on a scale of seconds) as you can't produce reverb for a sound that has yet to happen.

[Osiris]

@radiophonic Sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I meant was that the unit has a reverse reverb model, but it sounds from your original post that you have a very specific sound requirement in mind and I don't know if the Zoom will give you exactly what you want. It might, but you won't know until you try it. You may also find that you have limited control over the parameters (Level, tone, decay, tail and dry mix) compared to a dedicated unit. You could always add in something like a chorus model to give it a little shimmer too. 

I do have an MS-60B and I personally think it's a great little pedal that offers some good quality sounding effects for a modest amount of money. I don't really have any experience of higher costing units to compare it to as I'm not really a fan of obvious bass effects (filters, modulations etc.) as such, so there may be better options out there that will give you the sound that you want. But the Zoom is a cracking little unit none the less that might be worth a look if only to rule it out as a possibility.  

I tend to use the more pedestrian side of things with mine, as a tuner and compressor and as an occasional pre-amp and high pass filter rather than for any more obvious effects and it is more than good enough for my needs and certainly isn't out of place alongside the rest of my more expensive gear. 

See if you can track one down to try 

[radiophonic]

@BigRedX - You can use a Hann(ing) window approach to do Fourier Transform at very low latency, with enough processing power. Obviously with reverse, there's nothing to work with at the wavefront, but you're constantly re-sampling the input signal.  If it's done badly, it sounds like it (Reverse Delay on the Flashback for example - I can't work out how that's sampling but it's not at all right to my ears). I think the classic MBV / Midiverb II reverse sound only reversed the earliest repeats, which would be the easiest - probably for reasons of processor power at the time.

Edited March 21, 2018 by radiophonic

[radiophonic]

25 minutes ago, Osiris said:

@radiophonic Sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I meant was that the unit has a reverse reverb model, but it sounds from your original post that you have a very specific sound requirement in mind and I don't know if the Zoom will give you exactly what you want. It might, but you won't know until you try it. You may also find that you have limited control over the parameters (Level, tone, decay, tail and dry mix) compared to a dedicated unit. You could always add in something like a chorus model to give it a little shimmer too. 

I do have an MS-60B and I personally think it's a great little pedal that offers some good quality sounding effects for a modest amount of money. I don't really have any experience of higher costing units to compare it to as I'm not really a fan of obvious bass effects (filters, modulations etc.) as such, so there may be better options out there that will give you the sound that you want. But the Zoom is a cracking little unit none the less that might be worth a look if only to rule it out as a possibility.  

I tend to use the more pedestrian side of things with mine, as a tuner and compressor and as an occasional pre-amp and high pass filter rather than for any more obvious effects and it is more than good enough for my needs and certainly isn't out of place alongside the rest of my more expensive gear. 

See if you can track one down to try 

Gotcha. I'm in total weird-beard territory and I do have a sound in mind. It's finding a convincing shimmer and a convincing reverse in one pedal at a reasonable price / footprint that's my problem. It seems like reverse was a 'thing' in the 90s, but has drifted out of fashion, whereas shimmer is now a thing and will probably go the same way, to be replaced by another fad later.  For clean stuff (i.e. 90% of what I play in a band), I just add a bit of compression and sometimes a bit of chorus. When I stretch out, I go a bit nuts... Still quite tempted by an FX500 although I reckon I'll get bored of lugging it around pretty fast.

[No. 8 Wire]

I'm not a pedal junkie so could be way out here, but doesn't the memory man with hazarai do something close to what you are after?

[radiophonic]

3 minutes ago, No. 8 Wire said:

I'm not a pedal junkie so could be way out here, but doesn't the memory man with hazarai do something close to what you are after?

Do you mean the Cathedral? Memory Man is a delay. Both have a reverse echo option, but no shimmer AFAIK.

[No. 8 Wire]

6 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

Do you mean the Cathedral? Memory Man is a delay. Both have a reverse echo option, but no shimmer AFAIK.

Well to be honest I'm just looking into getting a MM for some home recording so no practical experience yet. I haven't looked into all the sound clips yet, but on this thread the guys using it are talking about getting shimmer with reverse reverb type effects. Have a read or do a word search on shimmer in the thread.

https://www.ehx.com/forums/viewthread/95/

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, radiophonic said:

@BigRedX - You can use a Hann(ing) window approach to do Fourier Transform at very low latency, with enough processing power. Obviously with reverse, there's nothing to work with at the wavefront, but you're constantly re-sampling the input signal.  If it's done badly, it sounds like it (Reverse Delay on the Flashback for example - I can't work out how that's sampling but it's not at all right to my ears). I think the classic MBV / Midiverb II reverse sound only reversed the earliest repeats, which would be the easiest - probably for reasons of processor power at the time.

Maybe? I suspect that most of these devices are merely doing some reverse envelope shaping to the effected sound. After all, it does't matter how low your processing latency is, it still can't predict the future, so you'll never get that classic reverse reverb into your opening note in real time.

[radiophonic]

25 minutes ago, No. 8 Wire said:

Well to be honest I'm just looking into getting a MM for some home recording so no practical experience yet. I haven't looked into all the sound clips yet, but on this thread the guys using it are talking about getting shimmer with reverse reverb type effects. Have a read or do a word search on shimmer in the thread.

https://www.ehx.com/forums/viewthread/95/

Hmm - I think that poster is saying that he got something similar to a shimmer using those settings, rather than actually getting a shimmer, if you get me (i.e specifically octave-up reverb cascade with no octave on the dry).  I may be over thinking this - I suspect I could get close using the Octave up on my Boss PS6 (which is turning out to be the most unexpectedly useful pedal I've bought). I probably don't need a 'no reverb' + 'no octave' component to the signal for the sound I'm after. The problem I always have is that I get a sound in my head and then once I have the gear to make it, I realise that if I'd spent an extra 50 quid on a slightly more flexible solution, I could also get the next sound I have in my head.... 

[radiophonic]

18 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Maybe? I suspect that most of these devices are merely doing some reverse envelope shaping to the effected sound. After all, it does't matter how low your processing latency is, it still can't predict the future, so you'll never get that classic reverse reverb into your opening note in real time.

If you can process the reverse in less than the primary reflection time, that will give you what you need. The big BUT is that you can't reverse the un-reflected sound at the same time. Which I think is what you are saying. For some things this is fine - the classic MBV sound (what I call the roaring dinosaur sound) was 100% wet anyway. The intention for us is to use this live to recreate a recording that was done the old fashioned way - he played the chords in reverse and flipped the recording - but I think this is as close as we'll get and provided the reflections are fairly short and undifferentiated from the dry signal, I think it will be good enough. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by radiophonic

[No. 8 Wire]

1 hour ago, radiophonic said:

Hmm - I think that poster is saying that he got something similar to a shimmer using those settings, rather than actually getting a shimmer, if you get me (i.e specifically octave-up reverb cascade with no octave on the dry).  I may be over thinking this - I suspect I could get close using the Octave up on my Boss PS6 (which is turning out to be the most unexpectedly useful pedal I've bought). I probably don't need a 'no reverb' + 'no octave' component to the signal for the sound I'm after. The problem I always have is that I get a sound in my head and then once I have the gear to make it, I realise that if I'd spent an extra 50 quid on a slightly more flexible solution, I could also get the next sound I have in my head.... 

Fair enough.  Sounds like you need to get a mod duo and then tweak any effect in any configuration to your hearts content..... come to think of it, why haven't I got one?

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[radiophonic]

I also notice the Zoom has some interesting Filters, including something that purports to emulate the ZVex SeqWah. I guess the only issue with this pedal  is where the hell you would put it in your chain. You'd want it near the front for filtering and near the end for the verbs. Might be worth a punt all the same if I can find one s/h. It does have a shimmer too. 

 

EDIT - I've been looking at the MS 70 CDR (v 2) not the 60B. Not sure about the low end loss, but predictably there are a lot more weirdies in here. v2 seems like a significant upgrade on v1, but there's scant youtube info. All the filters are new to v2.

Edited March 21, 2018 by radiophonic

[songofthewind]

Digitech iStomp Angelic Choir might meet your requirements. Very good pedal btw.

[tandark]

@radiophonic digitech hardwire reverb (predecessor to the polara) also has a good reverse reverb and may be cheaper second hand, although no longer in production.

The EHX cathedral has a reverse, and a hold switch with infinite reverb which is interesting.

Take a look at the old blood noise endeavours dark star, has bit crush, and octave up reverb that works well on bass (i've owned one, brilliant but upgraded to strymon timeline). 
https://www.oldbloodnoise.com/pedals/dark-star

 

[radiophonic]

1 minute ago, tandark said:

@radiophonic digitech hardwire reverb (predecessor to the polara) also has a good reverse reverb and may be cheaper second hand, although no longer in production.

The EHX cathedral has a reverse, and a hold switch with infinite reverb which is interesting.

Take a look at the old blood noise endeavours dark star, has bit crush, and octave up reverb that works well on bass (i've owned one, brilliant but upgraded to strymon timeline). 
https://www.oldbloodnoise.com/pedals/dark-star

 

I've been watching eBay for a Hardwire as it happens. No shimmer option, but I was playing around with my Boss PS6 last night and I think I can work around the shimmer. I'd prefer that TBH, because they've become quite faddy and I suspect that effect will seem quite dated pretty soon. Better to have a bespoke solution. Hardwire also have the a big advantage over Polara of legible control markings! The Cathedaral is just too bulky, so a s/h Hardwire might be the way to go. Alternatively a s/h FX500, racked with a simple footswitch on my board.

[tonyxtiger]

The shimmer on the meris reverb is worth checking but the price is double what you want to pay. On a shoegaze note the hungry robot WASH is fantastic. It’s different from the usual self oscillation stuff. 

[radiophonic]

@tonyxtiger I think that both the Meris and the Source Ventris look very interesting - but just too much dough really. Both definitely have their own vision. 

[Guest adi77]

if you have an octave up type pedal you could use that before the reverb to enhance the shimmer sound

the afterneath is cool but may not have what you have mentioned, it can get unpredictable and thats cool

Edited March 29, 2018 by adi77