Bean9seventy - the first UK funk / slap bassist?

[Bean9seventy]

2 hours ago, lojo said:

Sorry I don't get this ? 

sorry i thought you was lowdown ;D ,, i think i have texted enough on this thread , at the moment , unless there is anything else ?

[visog]

So where did we land on this? I remember seeing MK doing 'The Chinese Way' on ToTPs and buzz it created was unbelievable! Who's the guy playing Jaco lines and 16ths?!!!

Didn't see or hear much of the other players mentioned on this thread. Think I did catch a Stanley Clarke show on BBC2 in '79/''80 (same week as a showing of 'Shadows and Light' by Joni) when I'd just bought a bass. Stanley was playing some slap as well as all his descending 16th triplet shred lines. And he play played a Carl Thompson piccolo which was erm, unusual.

This one from '82 if it helps: 

 

[Bean9seventy]

45 minutes ago, visog said:

So where did we land on this? I remember seeing MK doing 'The Chinese Way' on ToTPs and buzz it created was unbelievable! Who's the guy playing Jaco lines and 16ths?!!!

Didn't see or hear much of the other players mentioned on this thread. Think I did catch a Stanley Clarke show on BBC2 in '79/''80 (same week as a showing of 'Shadows and Light' by Joni) when I'd just bought a bass. Stanley was playing some slap as well as all his descending 16th triplet shred lines. And he play played a Carl Thompson piccolo which was erm, unusual.

This one from '82 if it helps: 

 

when i uploaded this jam i had no idea MK worked in a music shop, yet,

so, all i had in the back of my mind during the take was i knew the original brit funk bass players before this LP was made , thanks ,

[lojo]

1 hour ago, visog said:

So where did we land on this? 

 

Not sure , ive not understood some of the replies , are we trying to figure out who was the first U.K. Born bassist to record slapping ?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by lojo

[Bean9seventy]

12 minutes ago, lojo said:

Not sure , ive not understood some of the replies , are we trying to figure out who was the first U.K. Born bassist to record slapping ?

 

 

 

 

not quite right ,, someone on reddit said i said i was the 1st uk slap bassist after watching a youtube video

  ,, i did not say that ,, but maintain i was in the 1st wave of uk slap players ,,

he also said , i personally influenced MK ,, also not true , but i did play bass in his shop & others Before & during the time MK worked in denmark st  ,

meaning i was one of a handful of bass players he saw ( not herd as we already discussed ) that could have probably possibly made him switch from drums to bass. as slap was the No1 latest thing in music back then , only a few players knew the method ,, in the UK

the source players are Bootsy & The Brothers Johnson with Robert Popswell as the bassist we wanted to be & sound like ,

 

[lowdown]

When you say ‘source players’, why no, or little interest in Larry Graham at the time, Bean9Seventy ?

Just Curious really. Because ‘Ain’t No ‘Bout-A- Doubt It’, by Graham Central Station (1975), was as funky as funky gets. Certainly what a few of us whipper snappers were listening to at the time, and thinking how is he doing that? His thumb must be made out of rubber. 

 

 

 

And surely you must have been huddled around a record player or rewinding cassette tapes trying to learn ‘Pow’ in 1978? 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by lowdown

[drTStingray]

Hey Lowdown, Graham Central Station were one of a number of new acts being pushed in the mid seventies by their record company in the UK (also included - Earth Wind and Fire). Kokomo was a UK band in that also. As far as the mainstream was concerned their music did not figure much and neither did it figure in clubs at the time.

EWF took off to become global stars whilst Graham Central Station did not to anywhere near that level. So Larry Graham did not figure to the same level - I was around in the late 70s and although had heard some GCS (and tried to learn it) I'd never even heard Hair until more recent years. In my opinion, Stanley Clark was a bigger influence on bass players than given credit, and particularly his sound. This influenced all of the big acts - listen to Rose Royce or Brothers Johnson, say 1976 and then again 1979 - the bass sound (particularly pop and slap) has changed from a thumpy P bass to a far more focussed Alembic/Musicman sound. 

Bean9seventy is right about dance music being a catalyst in bass playing - after all that's what disco is/was - for me and many of my peers, T Connection (Do What You Want To Do) was equally if not more influential than, say GCS. 

This seismic shift in bass sound at that time did result in the Brit Funk players of the early 80s generally following the late 70s bass sound and style rather than the early 70s - using an Alembic type of sound (although you never a UK player playing one because they were largely unobtanium and fearsomely expensive). Musicman, Ibanez Musician and Aria were the basses of choice (with MK using Jaydee - which sounded very Alembic). 

This track (released early 76) demonstrates the sound - and some similarities with some of Level 42's work

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

17 hours ago, Misdee said:

I also remember the BritFunk movement all too well. Sorry to say it, but much of that music was a second-rate imitation of it's more sophisticated American inspiration. Listening back now, most has not aged well. A very notable exception would be the Average White Band. They were one ( perhaps the only one ) of the very few British bands who were playing  funk/soul music in such an authentic and convincing manner that they enjoyed great success in the USA. They were also notable in that they attracted a multi-racial audience in America - a phenomenon far less common in the 70's than now.  American listeners thought AWB's music sounded just as good as it's US equivalent.

Also, it is my recollection that people were well aware of the  jazz funk and soul music that was coming out of the USA during that era. It certainly wasn't like today where you can go on Youtube and get slapping lessons from Victor Wooten, but records featuring bass techniques like slapping were everywhere. When I had my first bass lessons in a provincial town in the North of England about 40 years ago, the chap giving me tuition knew all about slapping and his technique was perfectly legitimate and correct. It might not have been the information age we live in now, but players still had enough ingenuity and know-how to work out how to play new techniques. In fact, I would venture that musicians were actually better at working out things by ear precisely because  they weren't being spoonfed as they are today.

Pretty much my take as well. 

 

 

[EMG456]

36 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

EWF took off to become global stars whilst Graham Central Station did not to anywhere near that level. So Larry Graham did not figure to the same level - I was around in the late 70s and although had heard some GCS I'd never even heard Hair until more recent years. In my opinion, Stanley Clark was a bigger influence on bass players than given credit, and particularly his sound. This influenced all of the big acts - listen to Rose Royce or Brothers Johnson, say 1976 and then again 1979 - the bass sound has changed from a thumpy P bass to a far more focussed Alembic/Musicman sound. 

This seismic shift in bass sound at that time did result in the Brit Funk players of the early 80s generally following the late 70s bass sound and style rather than the early 70s - using an Alembic type of sound (although you never saw anyone playing one in the UK because they were largely unobtanium and feasimely expensive). Musicman, Ibanez Musician and Aria were the basses of choice (with MK using Jaydee - which sounded very Alembic). 

 

This is a strange thread...

DrT, you are correct in what you say about the general reach of Graham Central Station versus EWF or indeed the Brothers Johnson with their Quincy Jones connections. Up here in Glasgow, the talk was really all about Louis Johnson. There was a great player called (I think) John Mambie who gigged with a funk/soul outfit up here who was very influential with the local players simply because none of us had ever actually *seen* that type of playing being performed before. the impact was similar to going to see Weather Report at the time and watching Jaco casually strolling out to the front of the stage to play the opening bars of Birdland in false harmonics on the bass - everybody had assumed it was played by Zavinul on an ARP synth! "What?! That's a bass??"

Mambie's main man was Louis Johnson so that's who we investigated. 

Also, here at that time, most of us who were playing came to it through rock music, not funk or soul. There were many more would be rock/pop bands than funk/soul. Bass players of the day who were interested in taking the bass out of it's traditional comfort zone had already been influenced by guys like Chris Squire, John Entwhistle etc. and had dumped the flatwound strings and extended the high frequencies to cut through the mix better. Stanley Clark, Alphonso Johnson, Jaco Pastorius were all heavy influencers as well and using similar clear, bright sounds

So the funk crept in through the Jazz/Rock/Fusion stuff and from the rock side through the likes of Steely Dan with the Chuck Rainey/ Bernard Purdie/ Steve Gadd rhythm section and the likes of Little Feat etc.

It's a big melting pot!

[lowdown]

17 minutes ago, EMG456 said:

 

So the funk crept in through the Jazz/Rock/Fusion stuff and from the rock side through the likes of Steely Dan with the Chuck Rainey/ Bernard Purdie/ Steve Gadd rhythm section and the likes of Little Feat etc.

It's a big melting pot!

"So the funk crept in".

This is more than likely what happened here in the UK. Just a gradual process up and down the country. 

 

 

 

[timhiggins]

I always thought that Doug Rauch's superb playing with Santana must have had a big impact on the full on more rhythmically busy slap approach to playing ,and this is from 72 

 

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, EMG456 said:

This is a strange thread...

DrT, you are correct in what you say about the general reach of Graham Central Station versus EWF or indeed the Brothers Johnson with their Quincy Jones connections. Up here in Glasgow, the talk was really all about Louis Johnson. There was a great player called (I think) John Mambie who gigged with a funk/soul outfit up here who was very influential with the local players simply because none of us had ever actually *seen* that type of playing being performed before. the impact was similar to going to see Weather Report at the time and watching Jaco casually strolling out to the front of the stage to play the opening bars of Birdland in false harmonics on the bass - everybody had assumed it was played by Zavinul on an ARP synth! "What?! That's a bass??"

Mambie's main man was Louis Johnson so that's who we investigated. 

Also, here at that time, most of us who were playing came to it through rock music, not funk or soul. There were many more would be rock/pop bands than funk/soul. Bass players of the day who were interested in taking the bass out of it's traditional comfort zone had already been influenced by guys like Chris Squire, John Entwhistle etc. and had dumped the flatwound strings and extended the high frequencies to cut through the mix better. Stanley Clark, Alphonso Johnson, Jaco Pastorius were all heavy influencers as well and using similar clear, bright sounds

So the funk crept in through the Jazz/Rock/Fusion stuff and from the rock side through the likes of Steely Dan with the Chuck Rainey/ Bernard Purdie/ Steve Gadd rhythm section and the likes of Little Feat etc.

It's a big melting pot!

Yep agreed - I also resonate with the local player thing - we had several - one of our best local funk bands actually supported the Stanley Clark Band when they performed for the first time in Brum. Also Jaco with Birdland - I was astonished when I saw him in concert playing the melody on false harmonics. 

Incredibly, looking back, I came to this through a prog and blues rock background - my group of mates basically diverged from prog - some towards Steely Dan, some AWB, Tom Scott and Marley, Mahivishnu, Return to Forever and Back Door  - I think two or three of us got into clubbing in a big way also - myself a bass player, along with a drummer and guitarist - club music changed our playing fundamentally, though we still played Greenslade and Camel covers for a while (with V funky rythmn section) ha ha! The biggest tracks in clubs often didn't become mainstream hits - although some have in recent years having been resurrected by people like Joey Negro and Giles Peterson.

The 80s Brit funk scene was very much dance orientated - and indeed dance music has always been far more influential on music than commentators give credit - even to this day. Level 42 got its audience from UK clubbers and the jazz funk fans - I never fail to be amazed the number of women at Level 42 concerts these days - not the sort of demographic you'd expect and surely evidence of their fan base being different from say, Genesis - whose concerts would be frequented by mostly guys often with long hair with beards etc!! 

Edited April 2, 2018 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

2 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Hey Lowdown, Graham Central Station were one of a number of new acts being pushed in the mid seventies by their record company in the UK (also included - Earth Wind and Fire). Kokomo was a UK band in that also. As far as the mainstream was concerned their music did not figure much and neither did it figure in clubs at the time.

 

But wasn't that the same with Bootsy in this country? All these American Bass players were a word and mouth thing for us musicians.

Stanley, Bootsy, Jaco etc, not something that we heard very often in clubs or on the mainstream radio? You had to go and search it out.

The 'BritFunk' thing the OP was talking about was different of course, quite often a lot of radio play.

Edited April 2, 2018 by lowdown

[Bean9seventy]

11 hours ago, lowdown said:

When you say ‘source players’, why no, or little interest in Larry Graham at the time, Bean9Seventy ?

Just Curious really. Because ‘Ain’t No ‘Bout-A- Doubt It’, by Graham Central Station (1975), was as funky as funky gets. Certainly what a few of us whipper snappers were listening to at the time, and thinking how is he doing that? His thumb must be made out of rubber. 

 

 

 

And surely you must have been huddled around a record player or rewinding cassette tapes trying to learn ‘Pow’ in 1978? 

 

 

when scotts bass lessons interviewed victor wotten victor also said he didn't know much about larry graham ,, thus the larry graham story(s) you hear from other players is a kind of myth ,,

when ever i land at these questions i always say ,, people only discover LG After they learn to slap bass ,, never before ,,

even tho LG is ( rightly) credited as the main source of slap ,, it was only after people around the world went slap happy that the larry graham story was revealed to all ,,

yes i do remember people getting into LG ,, but it was so personal & intimate ,, we would never out of respect copy or get involved ,,

today & for many years people like scott ( great guy ) would simply jam LG ,, but back in 1975 ? etc if you were caught playing LG Bootsy " chocolate city " etc ?  people might call the police ,,

thus LG & co were still very much xxxx level & a deep respect had to be for fitted ,,

thus everything we hear about LG  from other bass players " chat " is about 1980s on wards , thanks , lowdown

[Bean9seventy]

28 minutes ago, lowdown said:

But wasn't that the same with Bootsy in this country? All these American Bass players were a word and mouth thing for us musicians.

Stanley, Bootsy, Jaco etc, not something that we heard very often in clubs or on the mainstream radio? You had to go and search it out.

The 'BritFunk' thing the OP was talking about was different of course, quite often a lot of radio play.

larry graham was too deep for the UK at that time

his only hit was a ballad with no slapping called "1 in a million " his LPs did not feature in any of the discos ,,

undisputed truth , brass construction , were massive during the mid seventies ,, just before the disco era began ,,

[lowdown]

31 minutes ago, Bean9seventy said:

 but back in 1975 ? etc if you were caught playing LG Bootsy " chocolate city " etc ?  people might call the police ,,

 

 

Lol.......

People still call the Police if you are caught slapping these days in public (Historical crimes - Operation 'String Tree').

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by lowdown

[lowdown]

11 minutes ago, Bean9seventy said:

larry graham was too deep for the UK at that time

his only hit was a ballad with no slapping called "1 in a million " his LPs did not feature in any of the discos ,,

 

Yeah, probably true.

I was playing on Cruise ships out of Miami in '76 and 77. Every weekend when in port, we would hook up with American musicians from other ships.

They would suggest music for us to check out and listen to. In fact, it was in a local bar in Miami when I first saw/heard slapping in public.

Edited April 2, 2018 by lowdown

[lojo]

As I funk , soul and disco fan who was only a toddler in the 70s I like this thread, nothing new with regards to bands for me but to hear you guys where playing and heard this stuff first hand is exciting.

My route in was through Northern Soul 

[Bean9seventy]

2 minutes ago, lowdown said:

 

Lol.......

They still call the Police, if you are caught slapping these days in public.

 

Interesting thread.

yep ,, lowdown ,, in covent garden great big sign , no bass slpping

it was after the disco sucks saga that we began to back catalog P Funk & LG ,, Hendrix Pink Floyd anything with LSD ,

i became The Red Imperial Player ,, from the concept D,O,P,E department of pure energy ,, from the brothers of funk , thanks ,

[Bean9seventy]

11 minutes ago, lowdown said:

Yeah, probably true.

I was playing on Cruise ships out of Miami in '76 and 77. Every weekend when in port, we would hook up with American musicians from other ships.

They would suggest music for us to check out and listen to. In fact, it was in a local bar in Miami when I first saw/heard slapping in public.

how did you feel ?? ,, realizing that's how they created that sound ,,, as a dancer ,, i had to get a bass

 

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, lowdown said:

But wasn't that the same with Bootsy in this country? All these American Bass players were a word and mouth thing for us musicians.

Stanley, Bootsy, Jaco etc, not something that we heard very often in clubs or on the mainstream radio?

I first heard Bootsy on Flashlight in a club - and on other Parliament stuff which I had to learn as I was fortunate enough to get the bass job in a soul/funk band in the later 70s, which gradually morphed into disco/funk. The main men were Jamaican and had an encyclopaedic knowledge of black music since the 60s - hence covering bands like Fatback and Parliament.

If you saw Bootsy with Funkadelic they had up to 40 odd people on stage, with three or four bassists and each song went on for about 30 mins - you couldn't really pick out who was doing what and it was more of an experience than a gig/concert - a bit like a funk version of Zappa!! Except that squelching bass sound ha ha!! 

Edited April 2, 2018 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

4 minutes ago, Bean9seventy said:

how did you feel ?? ,, realizing that's how they created that sound ,,, as a dancer ,, i had to get a bass

 

Made me realize that I wasn't as good a player as I thought I was and needed to put in a lot more practise to get that stuff under my belt.

[drTStingray]

35 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

I first heard Bootsy on Flashlight in a club - and on other Parliament stuff which I had to learn as I was fortunate enough to get the bass job in a soul/funk band in the later 70s, which gradually morphed into disco/funk. The main men were Jamaican and had an encyclopaedic knowledge of black music since the 60s - hence covering bands like Fatback and Parliament.

If you saw Bootsy with Funkadelic they had up to 40 odd people on stage, with three or four bassists and each song went on for about 30 mins - you couldn't really pick out who was doing what and it was more of an experience than a gig/concert - a bit like a funk version of Zappa!! Except that squelching bass sound was reasonably unique ha ha!! 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

1 minute ago, drTStingray said:

I first heard Bootsy on Flashlight in a club - and on other Parliament stuff which I had to learn as I was fortunate enough to get the bass job in a soul/funk band in the later 70s, which gradually morphed into disco/funk. The main men were Jamaican and had an encyclopaedic knowledge of black music since the 60s - hence covering bands like Fatback and Parliament.

If you saw Bootsy with Funkadelic they had up to 40 odd people on stage, with three or four bassists and each song went on for about 30 mins - you couldn't really pick out who was doing what and it was more of an experience than a gig/concert - a bit like a fink version of Zappa!! Except that squelching bass sound ha ha!! 

Seems like we all arrived at the same place from different experiences. 

This thread has been a good read for all this stuff.

[drTStingray]

Yeah agreed entirely. Northern soul is another influencer in a different way (that dance craze was quite region specific as well).

I get that needing to much better  to play some of the stuff as well - trying to do some of Jaco and Stanley's stuff was impossible for me by ear.

Bands like AWB and Kokomo had such feel as well - single note bass parts with incredible timing and you needed the right drummer, rythmn guitar and feel for playing together as a unit to get anywhere near it. 

Anyone else get influenced by James Brown through clubs? I loved Get Up Offa That Thing and learned the bass part from hearing it and seeing/feeling its effect in a club!!

Edited April 2, 2018 by drTStingray