Bean9seventy - the first UK funk / slap bassist?

[lojo]

One of my favourite Gene Chandler tracks ,  shows you can play straight and still be funky 

 

 

[TOMAS]

On 02/04/2018 at 10:09, EMG456 said:

This is a strange thread...

DrT, you are correct in what you say about the general reach of Graham Central Station versus EWF or indeed the Brothers Johnson with their Quincy Jones connections. Up here in Glasgow, the talk was really all about Louis Johnson. There was a great player called (I think) John Mambie who gigged with a funk/soul outfit up here who was very influential with the local players simply because none of us had ever actually *seen* that type of playing being performed before. the impact was similar to going to see Weather Report at the time and watching Jaco casually strolling out to the front of the stage to play the opening bars of Birdland in false harmonics on the bass - everybody had assumed it was played by Zavinul on an ARP synth! "What?! That's a bass??"

Mambie's main man was Louis Johnson so that's who we investigated. 

Also, here at that time, most of us who were playing came to it through rock music, not funk or soul. There were many more would be rock/pop bands than funk/soul. Bass players of the day who were interested in taking the bass out of it's traditional comfort zone had already been influenced by guys like Chris Squire, John Entwhistle etc. and had dumped the flatwound strings and extended the high frequencies to cut through the mix better. Stanley Clark, Alphonso Johnson, Jaco Pastorius were all heavy influencers as well and using similar clear, bright sounds

So the funk crept in through the Jazz/Rock/Fusion stuff and from the rock side through the likes of Steely Dan with the Chuck Rainey/ Bernard Purdie/ Steve Gadd rhythm section and the likes of Little Feat etc.

It's a big melting pot!

Hi I originally from Glasgow just wondered if there any footage /audio of the bass player you mention John Mambie

[EMG456]

Hi Tomas - nothing I know about - it was a long time ago and even the 4 track cassette portastudios had not yet been invented!

On a quick dig around the web though, I have his name wrong - he is John Manby. I had heard he had moved to London but he now lives in Australia and apparently is still playing. The band I remember him from were called Croppa and he and the singer from that band, Tommy Jackson seem to be facebook buddies.

Isn't t'internet an amazing thing?!

When were you in Glasgow?

[songofthewind]

Strike me pink! I briefly played guitar in a band with John Manby, and another guitar player called Angie Antinori. This was post Croppa.

I think John played in another band called Celebrate also.

he was BIG into Louis Johnson, and didn’t really play any style except slap, when I knew him.

He’s from Dundee, and had a couple of pals called Peem (Peter) and Pizzo. Pizzo was a big lad, and went on to road manage many big acts. When the Dundee boys got together they were absolutely hilarious. John was into martial arts, and could be very serious. Happy days!

[EMG456]

10 minutes ago, songofthewind said:

Strike me pink! I briefly played guitar in a band with John Manby, and another guitar player called Angie Antinori. This was post Croppa.

I think John played in another band called Celebrate also.

he was BIG into Louis Johnson, and didn’t really play any style except slap, when I knew him.

He’s from Dundee, and had a couple of pals called Peem (Peter) and Pizzo. Pizzo was a big lad, and went on to road manage many big acts. When the Dundee boys got together they were absolutely hilarious. John was into martial arts, and could be very serious. Happy days!

Consider yourself struck! 

Yes - Celebrate rings a bell too.

I was playing kind of prog- ish rock at the time so as you can imagine, this was all a bit of a revelation to me!

Happy days indeed!

[songofthewind]

What was your band called?

[EMG456]

That band was Chaconne - pretentious? Moi? Lol.

We had a keys player who looked a bit like Catweazle and played the flute and sax as well. a singer who sang in his bare feet and me flailing around on assorted Rickenbackers and fenders whilst trying to balance on my fx pedalboard and bass pedals! We were Yes/ Genesis wannabees. Used to gig in the usual pub circuit of the era - the Amphora, Burns Howff, the Maggie, Dial Inn etc.

[songofthewind]

I think I remember your band! Can you name some of the members?

I mostly hung with the Cado Belle/Croppa/Celebrate/Motels crew, who just wanted to be American when it was still ok to want that.

I knew the Blue Nile boys, and did some art for them when they were the White Hats and the Parades. I totally bet I know you, at least to nod to in the venues you mention, or La Bonne Auberge or Nico’s!

[EMG456]

4 hours ago, songofthewind said:

I think I remember your band! Can you name some of the members?

I mostly hung with the Cado Belle/Croppa/Celebrate/Motels crew, who just wanted to be American when it was still ok to want that.

I knew the Blue Nile boys, and did some art for them when they were the White Hats and the Parades. I totally bet I know you, at least to nod to in the venues you mention, or La Bonne Auberge or Nico’s!

The Glasgow scene was a small world for sure - as you say, nodding terms for lots of musos in the gigs where every one went to see everyone else or in McCormacks Music on a Saturday to make your HP payments!!

I'm Eddie McGlone - in that band were guitar - Bill Alexander, a man who follows no conventions, Iain Aitken - Keys, sax, flute, Sandy Walker, our barefoot singer and Mick (memory fails me for his surname) on drums.

Paul (now likes to be known as PJ) Moore was keys for the previous version of that band and so I did also go to see them performing their "cabaret" sets in Nico's as White hats and also a terrific showcase gig they did in the Dial Inn as Macintyre.

If you don't know me from all that, I worked for a few years at the start of the 80s in Jimmy Grant's music shop at the top of Byres Road.

[songofthewind]

Oddly, I don’t recognise any of those names, but I’m pretty sure I saw Chaconne. I just about remember Jimmy Grant’s!

Great to reminisce with you, Eddie! I think we’ve hijacked this thread! Maybe there needs to be a Caledonian Club thread on Basschat..

All the best

Stu

[Bean9seventy]

On 21/07/2018 at 12:26, songofthewind said:

Oddly, I don’t recognise any of those names, but I’m pretty sure I saw Chaconne. I just about remember Jimmy Grant’s!

Great to reminisce with you, Eddie! I think we’ve hijacked this thread! Maybe there needs to be a Caledonian Club thread on Basschat..

All the best

Stu

all i can say to the recent above threads is that the average white band AWB from Scotland did play a part in helping some of the 2nd wave of brit funk players ,,, we herd their names mentioned whether it be ,, bass lessons stage craft ,, or just name dropping ,,

the key to this thread ,, is to let people realize brit funk was a simple grass roots upwards event ,, disco dancers who now wanted to create the music they danced to ,, whilst today in the UK, funk is a mainly gentrified middle class past time where they cleverly air brush out the origin of brit funk ,,

eg everyone talks about Larry Graham etc no one talks about Paul Tubsy Williams & others ,, these are the people who gave us brit funk ,, no one else ,,

there will be a few exceptions to the rule ,, but we know exceptions only end up proving the point ,,

again,, the thread title says Bean9seventy the 1st uk slap bassist ,,

No i was not the 1st uk slap player ,, but i was one of just a handful of players that were ,

i am not stamping my feet taking it too serious ,, its just something i never thought about ,, & its worth mentioning some 40 years later ,, especially to those who buy the air brush theory ,, never knowing who jumped on the band wagon then erase the history when they jump on ,,

as we know who ever wins re writes history ,, to certain extent they have already re written the history of brit funk ,, in their own image ,,, thus what i post is an account in many ways of what they do not want people to know ,,

remember there was only a " handful " of slappers ; D  ,, so there is no point asking Anyone else ,, they were not there ,,

[TOMAS]

On 19/07/2018 at 23:21, EMG456 said:

Hi Tomas - nothing I know about - it was a long time ago and even the 4 track cassette portastudios had not yet been invented!

On a quick dig around the web though, I have his name wrong - he is John Manby. I had heard he had moved to London but he now lives in Australia and apparently is still playing. The band I remember him from were called Croppa and he and the singer from that band, Tommy Jackson seem to be facebook buddies.

Isn't t'internet an amazing thing?!

When were you in Glasgow?

Thanks for that for that info, must see if I can find some footage/audio. I lived my whole life up 1999 in the Glasgow area. I do remember the name Croppa but never seen them live. I use to hang out in McCormicks on Saturdays they was young funk  player who was acceptoonal unfortunately do no his name. There was also a older guy that use to hang out at CC music Gary Denyer he had the Louis Johnson vibe nailed.. great to chat to you.

[Grassie]

On 02/04/2018 at 13:38, Bean9seventy said:

no ,, i decided to open a thread on a comment posted on reddit ,, where a user said i said i was the 1st uk slapper , i did not say that , i was in the 1st Wave of players ,,

& the other comment also said i claim to have directly influenced MK ,,

yes i did go into his music shop,,  yes he wasn't into bass yet , yes buy seeing what we were trying to do on bass probably hastened MK to quit drums & get into slapping ,, but to be the direct main influence ? is out of context

there were other bass players MK saw much better than myself ,, but in those days there were only a handful ,, & i was one of them ,

thoughts & opinions ?

Basic Level 42 early history goes like this:

Mark King played drums in various Isle of Wight bands in the mid 70's, cover bands playing holiday camps and hotels. His path crossed with original L42 drummer Phil Gould, and both shared a love of progressive bands such as Return to Forever and Mahavishnu. They would sometimes share drum duties during gigs. Mark also played with Phil's brother Rowland (Boon) Gould.

At some point Phil Gould left the island to study at Guildhall, where he met Mike Lindup. Boon had travelled up to London to try to get gigs and Mark shortly followed for the same reason. At this point Mark was intent on becoming a drummer. 

Phil, Mark and Mike would get together in the evenings at Guildhall to jam on songs they knew and to try out ideas. Initially they had Dominic Miller on guitar but he stopped turning up for rehearsals and so they asked Boon to join instead. Mark was happy to try bass because he regarded PG as the better drummer and wanted to be in a band with his mates.

I have not read anywhere that MK picked up a bass because he heard some blokes playing in the shop he worked in. That is actually incredibly presumptious and more than likely a little inaccurate IMO.

Mark as always maintained his bass influences were Stanley Clarke, Colin Hodgkinson and Jack Bruce, and that his style of slap playing was a natural extension of his drumming skills i.e. playing polyrhythmic patterns between the two hands. 

The first bass line MK ever wrote was for "Love Meeting Love", a fingerstyle line, and Mark worked in Macari's, which is in Charing Cross Road.

😊

Edited August 19, 2018 by Grassie

[Bean9seventy]

On 19/08/2018 at 19:30, Grassie said:

Basic Level 42 early history goes like this:

Mark King played drums in various Isle of Wight bands in the mid 70's, cover bands playing holiday camps and hotels. His path crossed with original L42 drummer Phil Gould, and both shared a love of progressive bands such as Return to Forever and Mahavishnu. They would sometimes share drum duties during gigs. Mark also played with Phil's brother Rowland (Boon) Gould.

At some point Phil Gould left the island to study at Guildhall, where he met Mike Lindup. Boon had travelled up to London to try to get gigs and Mark shortly followed for the same reason. At this point Mark was intent on becoming a drummer. 

Phil, Mark and Mike would get together in the evenings at Guildhall to jam on songs they knew and to try out ideas. Initially they had Dominic Miller on guitar but he stopped turning up for rehearsals and so they asked Boon to join instead. Mark was happy to try bass because he regarded PG as the better drummer and wanted to be in a band with his mates.

I have not read anywhere that MK picked up a bass because he heard some blokes playing in the shop he worked in. That is actually incredibly presumptious and more than likely a little inaccurate IMO.

Mark as always maintained his bass influences were Stanley Clarke, Colin Hodgkinson and Jack Bruce, and that his style of slap playing was a natural extension of his drumming skills i.e. playing polyrhythmic patterns between the two hands. 

The first bass line MK ever wrote was for "Love Meeting Love", a fingerstyle line, and Mark worked in Macari's, which is in Charing Cross Road.

😊

yeah ,, MK was taught by one of the guys who worked in the shop right ?  ,, but even he was not the 1st person to slap the bass ,, we know , people in college or music shops & those types will air brush out the fact that people were doing slapping on the street , in clubs 1st  ,,, there was a thing going on , man ,, called Disco

Funk did not start in a college or in a shop ,, or any of the names called out ,,  B.O.O.T.S.Y , with Louis Johnson ,, the London Gig ? ,, Louis Johnson = Larry Graham 2.0 ,,  only people part of the funk fraternity were shown 1st hand the deal on slap  ,,

its just that out of respect i will not mention the other bass players ,, only " Paul Tubbsy Williams " ,, who also went to the music shops ,

we know MK was not slapping the bass until he saw " us " ^ meaning the 1st handful of uk slap bassists ^ like Tubbsy

btw if i am not mistaken there were no college courses on slap bass in the UK until 1980 ,, before that it was called temporary music or jazz

from Al Jolson to Ali G ,,

[Grassie]

On 25/08/2018 at 23:44, Bean9seventy said:

yeah ,, MK was taught by one of the guys who worked in the shop right ? 

No, I don’t think this is correct at all. At least, I haven’t heard him say anything of the sort on tape or in print. 

It is possible you know, that when Mark picked up a bass he did his own thing more or less straight away, influenced by Mr Clarke et al.

On 25/08/2018 at 23:44, Bean9seventy said:

 

we know MK was not slapping the bass until he saw " us " ^ meaning the 1st handful of uk slap bassists ^ like Tubbsy

How do you know? 

On 25/08/2018 at 23:44, Bean9seventy said:

btw if i am not mistaken there were no college courses on slap bass in the UK until 1980 ,, before that it was called temporary music or jazz

from Al Jolson to Ali G ,,

Do you mean “contemporary music”? And Ali G???

Im confused... 🧐

[Bean9seventy]

On 27/08/2018 at 09:53, Grassie said:

No, I don’t think this is correct at all. At least, I haven’t heard him say anything of the sort on tape or in print. 

It is possible you know, that when Mark picked up a bass he did his own thing more or less straight away, influenced by Mr Clarke et al.

How do you know? 

Do you mean “contemporary music”? And Ali G???

Im confused... 🧐

No ,, after the somewhat disappointing run on the Aretha Franklin tribute ,, even to a point David Bowie ,what happened in 1977. 78 is now too long ago , not just to remember , but also to be relevant to today's world ,,

so stop  thinking MK ,, & starting thinking "Disco" ,, the reason why Clarke was noticed in the uk  is because he was being plugged in "Rock" music mags ,,, so MK  read about Clarke ,, in his shop ,, meanwhile 2 / 3 years earlier while king was doing " Nothing ", you had bass players in the uk already recording slap , yeah ,,  its just i refuse to tell you who those bassist are out of respect , ok ,

so , we all agree Larry Graham was the 1st Slap funk player of all time  , yeah ,, strange how when you hear the UK  story ,, from Someone who was "actually" there (eg Scotts Bass lesson wasn't even born then ) ,, you now get replies ,, like MK  did it himself , look, he Saw bass players like myself &  "" Tubbsy "" & others go into his shop, laying down the slap " Fact " , End of , lets move on ,, No , Butts , its true , did the truth hurt ?

 Al Jolson to Ali G  , the continuing story of open exploitation of Jazz Rock & Soul ,,

yes , there was no slap bass lessons in any colleges in the UK  until 1980 ,, in 1978.79 , the list would read ,, classical / jazz & " contemporary " music ,,

if MK  did it all by himself why did he use this bass line & use it for Mr Pink ,,?

meanwhile Tubbsy ,, took this same bass line ( @ 3 mins 30 secs , years earlier , from The Crusaders ,,  a track called Cosmic Reign ,, i call it the bass line that started brit funk ,, not to be taken literally ,, but conceptually ,

finally ,, you can see peeps all trying to defend MK ,, i knew this would happen ,, & the excuses to defend MK are getting weaker by each post ,,, the tread is not about MK its about the 1st UK  Slap players  ,, i was not the 1st ,, i was part of a circle of players who were,,

anything else ... ???

 

[Bean9seventy]

On 19/08/2018 at 07:10, TOMAS said:

Thanks for that for that info, must see if I can find some footage/audio. I lived my whole life up 1999 in the Glasgow area. I do remember the name Croppa but never seen them live. I use to hang out in McCormicks on Saturdays they was young funk  player who was acceptoonal unfortunately do no his name. There was also a older guy that use to hang out at CC music Gary Denyer he had the Louis Johnson vibe nailed.. great to chat to you.

The AWB posts are pages back ,,, we are talking about brit funk ,, not international soul acts ,, nevertheless AWB were behind 1 or 2 of the 1st brit funk slap players " via lessons , "stage craft " & song writing also Heatwave & The Olympic runners ,,

Paul Tubsy Williams is the " closet " thing to UKs answer to Larry Graham , perhaps more closer to Our own Louis Johnson as Tubbsy probably was not the 1st to slap ,, lets celibate that  , get loose , & loose the gentrification ,,

Funk is street music ,, & Disco is Disco music ,, & brit funk slap in the UK began in those places  ,, anything else ??

 

[Grassie]

1 hour ago, Bean9seventy said:

 

 

finally ,, you can see peeps all trying to defend MK ,, i knew this would happen ,, & the excuses to defend MK are getting weaker by each post ,,, the tread is not about MK its about the 1st UK  Slap players  ,, i was not the 1st ,, i was part of a circle of players who were,,

anything else ... ???

 

My point (which you seem to have missed entirely) is that you’re claiming that because you and some friends of yours went into a shop where Mark King worked, and played some slap bass while he may or may not have been listening, this directly influenced him and his playing style for which his is most famous. 

I’m merely asking you to provide a bit more proof than merely saying ‘this happened, so it’s fact’ based on the assumption that he’s never (in any of the interviews I’ve seen/read in any case) mentioned being influenced by customers venturing into the shop he once worked in, and them playing slap lines. 

Its not about defending him, it’s about proving your claim. 

[Bean9seventy]

8 hours ago, Grassie said:

My point (which you seem to have missed entirely) is that you’re claiming that because you and some friends of yours went into a shop where Mark King worked, and played some slap bass while he may or may not have been listening, this directly influenced him and his playing style for which his is most famous. 

I’m merely asking you to provide a bit more proof than merely saying ‘this happened, so it’s fact’ based on the assumption that he’s never (in any of the interviews I’ve seen/read in any case) mentioned being influenced by customers venturing into the shop he once worked in, and them playing slap lines. 

Its not about defending him, it’s about proving your claim. 

right ,, they were not just a " bunch " of players ,, they are the players that started brit funk ,, plus

look in soho there is a sign out side of a coffee bar that reads The is The Birthplace of British Rock  april 1956 ?

it was started by teenagers who wanted to form bands , brit funk was "exactly the same ,, the 1st brit funk gig was 1977/78 a band called hi tention  & Tubsy was in the crowd ,,

meanwhile the players who met louis johnson & bootsy @ the gig in london via " the fraternity " were already funking the hell out of baas guitars   they knew heatwave they knew everyone AWB  motown every DJ   you care to mention

they are the facts & this story is the evidence ,,,

so ? if MK totally ignored the most funkiest soulful people in the UK & their mega star supporting fraternity every time they went to Denmark St ,  why did he rip off their bass lines ??  ,, in fact why did he even bother to slap ? ,

[drTStingray]

Truth is, in the late 70s, the bass guitar was THE instrument to play in a band if you had any aspiration to be a 'good' player - there was quite a history of people wanting to be accepted dating back to the earliest days of 'progressive' (when everyone from Floyd to Fleetwood Mac to Blodwyn Pig were included in that 'genre') to the early 70s Yes and the like wanting acceptance as a 'serious' musician - unless you were a kid playing punk (and there weren't that many of them in spite of what one part of the music press would have you believe) you would be a serious rock or R and B player at that time (R and B including disco and jazz funk, Rock including prog).

The most dynamic and exciting form of bass playing (for players and audiences) was slap bass. I heard players like Pops Popwell with the Crusaders long before I knew about Larry Graham's earlier stuff - GCS was an upcoming band in the UK on a par with Kokomo - they were not stars. Any bass player with any aspiration to play R and B or pop would be playing slap - in fact if you turned up at an audition and couldn't, for such a band you would likely not get the job - by the early 80s it was essential. Pino was even doing it on a Fretless at that time!!

So I see no reason why MK wouldn't have been influenced by much of what was going on around him - that he was clearly looking for a Stanley Clarke sound and earlyish songs like Heathrow had bass parts bearing great resemblance to SC's lines (Lopsy Lu for example). However the first single (Love Meeting Love), a finger style part, has, I think been attributed to him playing a borrowed EB2 during his shop days - and his interest in a JD was sparked by seeing/hearing Gary Barnacle's brother's white JD - no doubt because of its ability to sound and vaguely look Alembic at a fraction of the cost. 

Also, at this time, although people may have been influenced by the likes of Jamerson, Babbitt etc - well at least their more famous parts (and remember in the 60s you couldn't hear the bass properly anyway), people were more likely to be influenced by this new wave of players like Bernard Edwards, Stanley Clarke, Pino Palladino and the disco players like Louis Johnson - and really any prominent bass part (Fatback Band, Ain't No Stopping Us Now, Earth Wind and Fire).

Unfortunately we suffer from a gradual re-write of history - fuelled by BBC documentaries (which fail to mention such seminal programmes as The Tube by Channel 4 and overly rely on the NME as a source, when it wasn't generally representative),  music school resources (Scotts Bass Lessons Included) seemingly focus on the excellent but at the time barely audible and certainly in the 70s, far less relevant early Motown stuff. The 70s/80s was a far more exciting time as a bass player in my view.

I am personally doubtful MK would have failed to be influenced by everything music wise and bass wise going on around him - and particularly working in a shop - that he only focusses on snippets and major stuff in interviews is hardly surprising. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by drTStingray

[drTStingray]

And he is correct that the Brit Funk stuff was based around the dance scene particularly in the south east. I remember Hi Tension well from that era and some of the Reggae groups like Inner Circle. 

I have always been astonished at the number of women at modern day Level 42 gigs - on a par with the number at say, Temptations, Simply Red etc etc - the link is dance I think - they had a broad appeal - Whereas rock is far more male orientated - prog in the 70s was all about guys in great coats and Afghans with long hair stroking their beards and gently nodding in time with the music whilst Messrs Wakeman and co cavorted around their keyboards!!! I was one of them....... before I discovered jazz, soul and funk!! 

Edited August 28, 2018 by drTStingray

[Bean9seventy]

yes , it was almost the same with punk ,, tho the pistols & strangles etc were formed in the mid 70s ,, steve strange ran a club called the blitz that became the centre for the new romantic movement ,, dozens of bands were formed ,,, from  George O'Dowd to spandu ballet ,, steve strange refused to let me into his club ,,

tho i "slightly disagree with the rock comment ,, normally who ever was the best on guitar kept his/her post & the other guitarist if they wanted to stay in the band played bass ,, sometimes ,,,,

yes , the disco movement in SE of england was in almost par with america we believed we had better dancers ,, & better clothes , in the sense of dance groups like hot gossip  ,, all we needed was our own bands & music ,,

as an elite dancer  who went to all the best clubs winning completions sometimes dancing with hot gossip in clubs ,, when i 1st saw slap i became a bass player  almost over night , 78/79,

,,, again as you say they were players who would pop the strings ,, i was popping strings before i saw slap ,, ( the complete thumb pop method ) on a flat wound bass even on guitar  i was a rhythm guitarist , before i saw the deal on bass

so again,, here is a song that you can  say was one of the 1st songs people in the uk would pop ,,, not slap ,,, thanks ,,

 

 

[Grassie]

10 hours ago, Bean9seventy said:

right ,, they were not just a " bunch " of players ,, they are the players that started brit funk ,, plus

look in soho there is a sign out side of a coffee bar that reads The is The Birthplace of British Rock  april 1956 ?

it was started by teenagers who wanted to form bands , brit funk was "exactly the same ,, the 1st brit funk gig was 1977/78 a band called hi tention  & Tubsy was in the crowd ,,

meanwhile the players who met louis johnson & bootsy @ the gig in london via " the fraternity " were already funking the hell out of baas guitars   they knew heatwave they knew everyone AWB  motown every DJ   you care to mention

they are the facts & this story is the evidence ,,,

so ? if MK totally ignored the most funkiest soulful people in the UK & their mega star supporting fraternity every time they went to Denmark St ,  why did he rip off their bass lines ??  ,, in fact why did he even bother to slap ? ,

And round we go again...

[drTStingray]

4 hours ago, Grassie said:

And round we go again...

I don't think so - the signigicant addition to your History item is the UK dance scene and its influence on bands and Britfunk of the time (and thus MK and Level 42) and the fact that MK was almost certainly influenced by his music shop interfaces of the time. 

Its similar really for instance to the inter relationship of rave music and the rave scene of the late 80s/early 90s. 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

11 hours ago, Bean9seventy said:

 

 

 

It seems that in 1977, Disco Dancers (well Americans) had perfected the Art of 'Slap & Pop' air Bass.

Check out 0:16 during the intro.

Edited August 29, 2018 by lowdown