Zoom B3n - Adjusting Master Input Level

[King Tut]

I use a Zoom B3n most of the time for gigs. I'm lucky enough to have a few basses, and I chop n change from gig to gig. I've noticed that when I use some basses (and a couple of Sandbergs spring to mind), my sound seems much more heavily compressed than when using a passive Jazz Bass or similar.

I'm guessing this is because the Sandbergs have a higher output level than the passive basses and consequently more of the signal is above the compressor threshold. Does this ring true or do the Sandbergs just have a naturally more compressed sound - thoughts?

So - if I'm barking up the right tree here, rather than having to reprogram a new raft of patches for when I'm using my active basses, is there any way I can vary the master input on B3n to tame the signal a bit. I've obviously looked through the manual but can't see any obvious way to do this.

Other options are to stick with basses with a similar output, or to turn the volume of the active basses down when I'm gigging them. Anyone got any other bright ideas?

[Al Krow]

I think basses in active mode generally will put out a higher output than when set to passive. That's certainly the case with my Ibbys. Interestingly my Sandberg TM4 has probably the most similar volume output between active and passive modes and is virtually identical when the EQ is set flat.

By far the simplest solution, I would have thought, is to turn the volume down on the bass a touch, if your actives basses are putting out more output than your passives?

The other option here would be to alter the compressor threshold and make a note of which works best with which bass?

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Al Krow

[King Tut]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I think basses in active mode generally will put out a higher output than when set to passive. That's certainly the case with my Ibbys. Interestingly my Sandberg TM4 has probably the most similar volume output between active and passive modes and is virtually identical when the EQ is set flat.

By far the simplest solution, I would have thought, is to turn the volume down on the bass a touch, if your actives basses are putting out more output than your passives?

The other option here would be to alter the compressor threshold and make a note of which works best with which bass?

 

Interesting you say that @Al Krow cos I thought the output on my Sandbergs were similar to my passive basses, when I switch them to passive there's no drop in volume. I think I need to experiment!

[Huge Hands]

Ok, so I'm going to say this with no proof, other than a feeling... I have a B1 Xon on my main pedal board, which only ever gets dusted off on big gigs which I don't do that often.  When I have used it, I tried to use it as volume pedal, so my custom patch has all effects/dynamics off, but it constantly sits on in the loop with only the ability to do volume.  I have always felt that even with all settings set as flat as possible, the B1 feels like it is adding a limiter/compression to the signal path.  I had a Tonebone Bassbone feeding it which would switch between passive/active basses or bass/EUB.  I was sure I could feel it to various levels on all basses.

I figured I was causing it by poor gain structure somewhere in my signal chain which would overdrive something, but I have never managed to get to the bottom of it.  It's harder to spot in different scenarios (room size, headphones etc). and it could just be me being paranoid.

I'm just wondering if the Zoom circuitry could be more prone to go into saturation somewhere along the line, which is more noticeable on your higher input active basses? 

[dannybuoy]

It's certainly possible. They don't make it easy to adjust the input level or have any metering, so it would make sense to put a limiter on the front end before the digital conversion to prevent clipping. Not sure if you'll get an answer out of Zoom themselves though!

[King Tut]

Just tried a passive Yamaha PJ vs one of my Sandbergs and the Sandberg definitely has a considerably higher output in both active and passive mode than the Yammy.

[Osiris]

Are you actually using a compressor or limiter in your patch(es)? If you are then try adjusting the threshold and/or ratio to compensate. If you're not then I'm not sure what the issue is or how to trim the input signal from the device itself.

I occasionally gig with a Zoom MS-60B that I only use for tuner and compression duties, and I also gig with a variety of basses including a couple of Sandbergs, one active, the other passive. Space permitting on the gig I use my pedal board featuring a TC Spectracomp as my usual compressor, but on those tight gigs it's the little Zoom on top of the amp. My sound is never more compressed by the Zoom - other than the by amount of squash I dial in - regardless of which bass I'm using. In fact my highest output bass is a cheap Peavey with a Di'Marzio model P pup and that has a massive output signal, noticeably hotter than my active 'Berg VM, but it never sounds overly compressed through the Zoom. Obviously my Zoom is a different model to yours but I'd have thought they were generally comparable?  

Just a thought, are you using the Zoom inline or through the effects loop of your amp?

[PaulWarning]

been messing about with my B3 today, even with all the effects switched off (or the tuner engaged) there a noticeable difference between that and going straight into the amp, does it have a true bypass?

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, King Tut said:

Just tried a passive Yamaha PJ vs one of my Sandbergs and the Sandberg definitely has a considerably higher output in both active and passive mode than the Yammy.

We seem to have very similar gear  (I've also got a Yammy PJ and a Sandberg bass as well as a B3n!)

Raise the pup heights by a couple of screw half turns on the Yammy - I think you'll find that you very quickly get to a similar level of output on the Yammy as the Berg.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Al Krow

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I think basses in active mode generally will put out a higher output than when set to passive. That's certainly the case with my Ibbys. Interestingly my Sandberg TM4 has probably the most similar volume output between active and passive modes and is virtually identical when the EQ is set flat.

This is one of those misunderstandings that are common with preamps in basses.

It is true that on some amps, the output will appear to be higher than with passive, but this is an issue of the amp, not the bass. On an Ibby, the output level in active, is exactly the same as the output level in passive (and I know, I have measured it). In fact, with everything set flat it is not possible to tell the difference between active and passive with a short cable and no electrical noise round. That is the voltage is the same. If your amp has a lowish impedance input, it will drag the voltage from the bass down in passive mode, but in active mode the level will be maintained, so it will appear a lower level.

Where you have an active switch it will reduce the impedance of the input, which in a passive bass will greatly reduce the input voltage (and make it go quieter), but not in an active, where it will ensure that noise is reduced in your long cable runs (which is exactly the point of an active bass).

In a properly set up active system you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between active and passive, unless you like the treble drop of going through a long cable (which is why the smoothhound has a switch just for that - the cable simulator).

[Al Krow]

@Woodinblack are you sure what you've written above is 100% correct? See also http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/active.shtml

Edited March 27, 2018 by Al Krow

[Woodinblack]

Whereas I am never convinced that everything I have written is 100% correct, which bit does that article disagree with?

Once you have a preamp obviously you can then apply tone shaping controls, but that is just a bonus in having the preamp (or what they in that article are called buffering). Again, if you prefer the tone of a passive bass, you are liking the treble cut and loading provided by the capacitance and loss in your cables and the preamp of your amp.

[Al Krow]

Hi Woody - I think you were implying that active mode being louder than passive is down to the the amp rather than the (pups and) pre-amp in the bass?

I don't think that's correct.

Let's take a particular bass with a passive pup and pre-amp with both passive and active modes. I think the active preamp, as well as tone shaping, will often also boost output as well i.e. this is a bass issue and not an amp issue. I'm certainly finding that with my Ibby SR1800. That point is made in the article when it says: "Generally speaking you can only get boosted levels from an active device."

The point of having an active switch on your amp (which I have on a couple of my amps) is to tame the greater output from the bass, typically from basses in active mode, but equally from 'hot' passive pups. That point is also there in the article.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Al Krow

[LukeFRC]

16 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Generally speaking you can only get boosted levels from an active device."

That's a true statement but I don't think what Woodinblack was getting at.

 

[LukeFRC]

Interesting test - on a passive bass see if your tone control reacts differently depending on if you're using the active or passive input on the amp 

[Woodinblack]

36 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Hi Woody - I think you were implying that active mode being louder than passive is down to the the amp rather than the (pups and) pre-amp in the bass?

In a way, I am saying the voltage level of an active bass (without a bass or treble boost on), if it is correctly set up should be (and is in the case of an ibanez) exactly the same as a passive level.

Going into a very high impedance input, it will be at exactly the same voltage.

If the impedance of the input is low, then more current will flow, which an active preamp can cope with but a purely passive system can't, so in the passive case, the voltage (and thus the end volume) will go down.

 

36 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I don't think that's correct.

Let's take a particular bass with a passive pup and pre-amp with both passive and active modes. I think the active preamp, as well as tone shaping, will often also boost output as well i.e. this is a bass issue and not an amp issue. I'm certainly finding that with my Ibby SR1800. That point is made in the article when it says: "Generally speaking you can only get boosted levels from an active device."

I am not talking about the tone shaping, that in this case is a secondary effect, and obviously that last line is correct, you can only boost levels on an active bass. However, unless there is some reason you want to, it wouldn't be correct to boost the level with controls flat. None of my basses do. If your SR1800 does, either there is a problem with it, you are using a really long cable or your amplifier has a low impedance. On my TC450 there is no volume different on any of my basses changing between passive and active.

As I have said, I have measured the output of my Ibby 1605 (for another reason) into a high impedance source. There is absolutely no measurable difference.

36 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The point of having an active switch on your amp (which I have on a couple of my amps) is to tame the greater output from the bass, typically from basses in active mode, but equally from 'hot' passive pups. That point is also there in the article.

 

And the point is wrong. The active switch on your amp is to provide a low impedance sink to your preamp which means that injected noise is mostly eliminated and effects of resistance and capacitance in your leads don't cause treble bleed. Obviously that is no good on a passive bass, as you would change the levels and the function of the volume and tone on your bass.

 

[dannybuoy]

Whilst true, some amps have an active / passive switch that is purely an input pad, they don't all switch between high and low impedance.

[jposega]

You could always get an ABY box with gain for each input to put in front.

[Woodinblack]

Some basses are also a pain. I have a set of presets on the 450 which have everything set for normal / overdrive / dull and lifeless for blues, and they work fine for all basses, apart from the G&L 2500, which is completely over the top and causes it to clip. OK, I can turn it down, but then changing preset it is back up agin, so I have to play with the volume down on the bass, and hope I don't accidently turn it up.

Although in the spirit of this thread, I could actually use a channel of the b3 as a reducing preamp..

[LukeFRC]

7 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Some basses are also a pain. I have a set of presets on the 450 which have everything set for normal / overdrive / dull and lifeless for blues, and they work fine for all basses, apart from the G&L 2500, which is completely over the top and causes it to clip. OK, I can turn it down, but then changing preset it is back up agin, so I have to play with the volume down on the bass, and hope I don't accidently turn it up.

Although in the spirit of this thread, I could actually use a channel of the b3 as a reducing preamp..

that's cos G&L pickups are crazy high output! 

[King Tut]

15 hours ago, Osiris said:

Are you actually using a compressor or limiter in your patch(es)? If you are then try adjusting the threshold and/or ratio to compensate. If you're not then I'm not sure what the issue is or how to trim the input signal from the device itself.

I occasionally gig with a Zoom MS-60B that I only use for tuner and compression duties, and I also gig with a variety of basses including a couple of Sandbergs, one active, the other passive. Space permitting on the gig I use my pedal board featuring a TC Spectracomp as my usual compressor, but on those tight gigs it's the little Zoom on top of the amp. My sound is never more compressed by the Zoom - other than the by amount of squash I dial in - regardless of which bass I'm using. In fact my highest output bass is a cheap Peavey with a Di'Marzio model P pup and that has a massive output signal, noticeably hotter than my active 'Berg VM, but it never sounds overly compressed through the Zoom. Obviously my Zoom is a different model to yours but I'd have thought they were generally comparable?  

Just a thought, are you using the Zoom inline or through the effects loop of your amp?

Yes, I am using compression in the patches. I could obviously duplicate the patches but set a higher threshold on the compressor for use with the higher output basses, but was hoping to save myself the ballache of doing this if someone had a way to globally turn the input gain down. 

I'm going bass to B3n to amp, not using the fx loop . . . .

[Osiris]

33 minutes ago, King Tut said:

Yes, I am using compression in the patches. I could obviously duplicate the patches but set a higher threshold on the compressor for use with the higher output basses, but was hoping to save myself the ballache of doing this if someone had a way to globally turn the input gain down. 

I'm going bass to B3n to amp, not using the fx loop . . . .

If you have enough spare patches to free on the B3n it sounds like that's the best way to address it i.e. have different versions of the same patch configured for your different basses. That way whenever you use a different bass you just pull up the appropriate patch with the right compression (and whatever else) settings. 

But if you use loads of different patches/sounds per bass then I can see how it will be a ball-ache .

If you're anything like me and keep things simple with just one or two patches per bass it shouldn't take more than a few minutes once you've figured out the optimum compression settings for each different one. 

[Meypelnek]

One option would be to set the para eq at first position in the patch chain and just adjust the level of this effect according to the output of the basses you are using.