cLepto-bass Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 So I was just in the middle of restringing my bass when I noticed this... Just wondering if those notches where the strings sit is something to be concerned by? I must admit that lately I have noticed that the E sting (this bass is tuned E-C, so the lowest string) has lacked a certain punch and presence lately - could the zero fret have anything to do with that? Cheers in advance Quote
Manton Customs Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 No that's not normal unfortunately! It should be unmarked and the nut holds the strings in place. Your zero fret is wearing out. Lots of manufactures use stainless steel zero frets to stop this happening so quickly. Those grooves will effect open notes, so you'll get buzzing when playing opens soon (if you aren't already). The fix is to pull and replace the zero fret. 1 Quote
GisserD Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) My sandberg has the same thing. It's an unfortunate side effect of sandberg factory fitted nickel/copper frets and stainless strings. The string is much harder than fret and over time it's inevitable that these grooves will appear caused by tuning (and maybe string vibrations?) Fortunately replacing a single fret is not complicated or overly expensive with a qualified Luther. Edited March 31, 2018 by GisserD Quote
dyerseve Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 I disagree. This is completely normal. It is exactly the same as filing the nut to set the action. In the case of basses with zero frets the nut merely holds the string in the correct position relative to the next string and it the edges of the fretboard. It will not set the height of the string from the first fret because the strings must contact the zero fret. Depending on the relief set and string gauges used, grooves will have to be cut in to the zero fret to correctly set the action at the first fret which typically should be about .022" or .559mm 1 Quote
dannybuoy Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) I thought one of the points of having a zero fret is that the string height is already optimal, being the same sized fret material and radius as the rest of the frets. Filing grooves might end up with zero fret being lower than the first fret. If you're going to file grooves into a zero fret on purpose, why not just do away with the whole concept and go for a metal nut instead? I'm no expert and certainly no luthier, that's just what makes sense to me anyway! Edited March 31, 2018 by dannybuoy 2 Quote
Manton Customs Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, dyerseve said: I disagree. This is completely normal. It is exactly the same as filing the nut to set the action. In the case of basses with zero frets the nut merely holds the string in the correct position relative to the next string and it the edges of the fretboard. It will not set the height of the string from the first fret because the strings must contact the zero fret. Depending on the relief set and string gauges used, grooves will have to be cut in to the zero fret to correctly set the action at the first fret which typically should be about .022" or .559mm Sorry but that's not how it works. With a zero fret equipped instrument the correct height at the first fret is set by the height of the wire used for the zero fret. No decent manufacturer, tech or luthier would ever file grooves into a zero fret to lower the height. Edited March 31, 2018 by Manton Customs 2 Quote
cLepto-bass Posted March 31, 2018 Author Posted March 31, 2018 This is all great insight. Many thanks to all who have offered advice. Now to find someone in Glasgow who can take care of the work. Quote
songofthewind Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 You can see the black (Delrin?) string guide is also shredded, so I’m guessing its string wear on both zero fret and string guide. The grooves may eventually wear down lower than the first fret, causing buzzing. Use feeler gauges to check the height of the regular frets and the bottom of the groove in the zero fret. The top of the zero fret should be a HAIR taller. Jimmy Moon in Pollokshaws Road can do a quality job, or Bailey Guitars near Ayr are good too. Quote
dyerseve Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Manton Customs said: Sorry but that's not how it works. With a zero fret equipped instrument the correct height at the first fret is set by the height of the wire used for the zero fret. No decent manufacturer, tech or luthier would ever file grooves into a zero fret to lower the height. So you expect someone to just replace the zero fret everytime they want to change the action above the first fret? hmmm... Quote
dannybuoy Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 No more then you would expect to have to replace a nut. You can always shape the zero fret to get it right, just like cutting nut slots, then expect to replace it if you go too far (or it gets worn out!). Wouldn't changing the nut (or zero fret) height be a set-it-and-forget-it operation? Even if changing string guage, the height at the first fret should be dependent on the height difference between the zero and first frets, would string thickness matter? Quote
Manton Customs Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 33 minutes ago, dyerseve said: So you expect someone to just replace the zero fret everytime they want to change the action above the first fret? hmmm... I'm not expecting anyone to do anything different than they have been doing for decades. The correct clearance is built into the bass in the first place. That's one of the main benefits of a zero fret (aside from the more even tone with opens) - that you get the perfect clearance at the first fret without any fiddling. You will never need to go lower, or that will result in not enough clearance....think about it - if all things are equal and you went lower at the zero fret, that would make the zero fret shorter than the height of the first fret. You may need to go higher as the zero fret wears (like the OPs) but you can't do that on a regular nut anyway. The trade off is that if a harder material is not used at the zero fret, you will get wear rather quickly as the string is making constant contact and the strings are often harder material than the zero fret (Nickel silver). FWIW, I've built a fair few guitars and basses with zero frets... 1 Quote
BreadBin Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 Regarding the position of the zero fret - is it where the nut would normally be or is it more like Buzz Feiten's system? Quote
Grangur Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 2 hours ago, dyerseve said: So you expect someone to just replace the zero fret everytime they want to change the action above the first fret? hmmm... Fret wire is available in different heights. So if you do want a lower action, although it would be only slight or you'd get fret noise, you can get a lower profile fret wire. Besides, exactly how often do you file the nut lower on a normal bass? 1 Quote
dyerseve Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, Grangur said: Fret wire is available in different heights. So if you do want a lower action, although it would be only slight or you'd get fret noise, you can get a lower profile fret wire. Besides, exactly how often do you file the nut lower on a normal bass? Every time I've owned a bass with a zero fret I've had to give it a setup which included reducing the relief. This then meant the height at the first fret has higher than it should be so I've filed the zero fret slightly to lower the action. Same as I would do to the nut if there was no zero fret. Quote
Grangur Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, dyerseve said: Every time I've owned a bass with a zero fret I've had to give it a setup which included reducing the relief. This then meant the height at the first fret has higher than it should be so I've filed the zero fret slightly to lower the action. Same as I would do to the nut if there was no zero fret. "Relief" is the curve in the neck. This is adjusted using the Truss rod. You probably mean you lower the "action". /pedant. Each to their own. Quote
blablas Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 The zero fret on my Basic 5 Ken Taylor is 0.4 millimeter higher than the other frets, it has the same grooves in it and given this appears on quiet a few other Sandberg's I assume it's standard for Sandberg. 1 Quote
dannybuoy Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 I'd call it a design flaw though if the zero fret is smooth when you buy it new and the grooves develop over time. I now have GAS for a stainless steel zero fret thanks to this thread! Quote
Angelus Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 6 hours ago, uzzell said: This is all great insight. Many thanks to all who have offered advice. Now to find someone in Glasgow who can take care of the work. While I’ve never used him, I know friends west of me who are happy with such work undertaken by https://www.facebook.com/George-Russell-Stringed-Instrument-Repairs-428353863929557/ Quote
GisserD Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 There is a fair bit of misunderstanding about a zero fret in this thread. (& also a healthy amount of fact also) I'd encourage anybody who is interested, to research thoroughly on reputable sources. *Especially before filing slots it a zero fret to lower the action 4 Quote
Grangur Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 Here's an interesting thread about Sandberg Zero Frets. It includes some information from Sandberg http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/Bass/acapella-17/438254- 1 Quote
dyerseve Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Grangur said: "Relief" is the curve in the neck. This is adjusted using the Truss rod. You probably mean you lower the "action". /pedant. Each to their own. Mate I know what I'm talking about. If you adjust the relief it alters the action at the nut. This is why you set the relief first whenever you setup a bass as it is the foundation of everything else. Quote
dyerseve Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 47 minutes ago, Grangur said: Here's an interesting thread about Sandberg Zero Frets. It includes some information from Sandberg http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/Bass/acapella-17/438254- Wow so how many humble pies am I ordering for everyone???😁 1 Quote
mcnach Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, dannybuoy said: I thought one of the points of having a zero fret is that the string height is already optimal, being the same sized fret material and radius as the rest of the frets. Filing grooves might end up with zero fret being lower than the first fret. If you're going to file grooves into a zero fret on purpose, why not just do away with the whole concept and go for a metal nut instead? I'm no expert and certainly no luthier, that's just what makes sense to me anyway! Same here... if you're using the zero fret as a nut and cut grooves on it, then what's the point? Use a metal nut and be done. I have not seen any zero frets with grooves from factory, and that includes the 4 I've owned (one guitar and three basses). edit: just read the Sandberg info... I don't get it, then. What flavours can I have those humble pies in? I'll eat one, but I'm still confused as to what the point is... Edited March 31, 2018 by mcnach 1 Quote
ped Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 I’m going to start filing grooves into all my frets to get my action lower 😂 1 1 3 Quote
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