Does my pub band really need 4 PA speakers?

[Bluewine]

9 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Depends upon your kit as to whether the sound is awful. If you took away the visuals and titles of this video and you had just the audio... I would say it would have most people fooled.

If it doesn't, I would wager, that this is hundreds of times better sounding than the woeful micing jobs that I've heard on the circuit. Of course, this sound can be had at low volumes too.

Don't get me wrong, I like analogue kits, especially nicely miced and processed - as long as the room is big enough to take them of course. Oh... and lets not forget that electric kits don't tend to look very "rock n roll"... but thats why you get a set of Jobecky shells.

Yes, lots of variables.

The kits in the video are light years a head of what our drummer was using.

Depends von the band and the type of gigs your playing. I would bet the kits in the clips work best when integrated with astate of the art  sound solution.

Blue

Edited April 8, 2018 by Bluewine

[bazzbass]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 17:31, Dad3353 said:

[Pedantry]
Not strictly true, of course ...

(Grateful Dead's 'Wall Of Sound', 1973...) Abandoned quite rapidly, not for acoustic reasons, but the logical complexity of setting up/tearing down was too much for touring.
[/Pedantry]

HEHE this is my fave rock n roll photo of all time

 

actually,the way the system avoided feedback was pure genius. IIRC he used 2 mics on everything with phase reverse on one of them to eliminate feedback? or sumfink like dat, three mics maybe?

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[stingrayPete1977]

13 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

That is quite a long way from budget though isn't it?

Part of the problem with electronic kits is that most drummers will spend a few thousand pounds on an acoustic kit then about £200 for a used electronic one off ebay for home practice, that kit comes out for the odd gig where a regular kit wouldn't work and everyone says electronic kits sound rubbish. 

The biggest issue I've had with electronic kits is that you're giving the drummer a brain! Silly sounds between songs is funny for about maybe one gig, once. If I was the bandleader I'd have the kit setup with a good sound and have the volume set then lock the unit away from the drummer. 

[FinnDave]

4 hours ago, bazzbass said:

HEHE this is my fave rock n roll photo of all time

 

actually,the way the system avoided feedback was pure genius. IIRC he used 2 mics on everything with phase reverse on one of them to eliminate feedback? or sumfink like dat, three mics maybe?

Yep, two mics out of phase for everything, arranged so the sound you wanted was only picked up by one. Worked perfectly. Bear could be, by all accounts, an arrogant know-it-all, but on the plus side, he DID know it ALL! As Jerry Garcia said 'There's nothing wrong with Bear that a few billion  less brain cells wouldn't cure". 

I've got Bear's biography on my shelf and often dip into it. A truly inspiring man without whom the 60s would have been very, very different.

[solo4652]

OK - quick update from last night, folks. We arrived at venue at 5, just about ready to play by 8-30. Smallish stage meant we had to move things around quite a bit from our usual positions. While setting up, I kept asking: "Why do we..." The early-evening reply from BL and drummer was; "Steve - you don't understand what we're doing, do you?" I meant to take an inventory of the PA kit, but was too busy fetching and carrying. I did note that front speakers are pole-mounted 15" Mackies of some sort. Rear of stage are two new 15" pole-mounted full-range Yamahas ("£900 each, Steve.."), with one perched above an enormous 18" Yamaha sub. Three floor wedge monitors out front. Myself and guitarist went through our own rigs. BL ended up standing right in front of one of the rear speakers and quickly started to comment on the volume.

I had the chance to speak to the drummer as we went out for pizzas. As I suspected, he's very happy to have his electronic drums through the rear speakers.

Me: "Don't you find the stage too noisy?"

Drummer: "No, I'm used to much more volume than this"

Me: "Why can't you go through the front speakers?"

D: "Because they're poor quality, and my electronic drums sound crap through them"

Me: "We could put the new Yamahas out front - they're full-range, aren't they? - and put everybody through them. Use whatever floor monitors are necessary, and dispense with the Mackies and the sub completely. What do you think?"

D: "I'm not sure the speakers would cope with that. My bass drum and your bass would surely interact. And, I like to feel my bass drum. Remember that we're aiming for a lush, full sound."

At that point, I decided not to press the point any further.

Having said all that, the gig went very well. The venue manager said; "Best band I've heard in 35 years. We'll definitely have you back, and I'll get you booked in for some weddings too". BL stood in front of one of the rear speakers and was seen wincing. The load-out included dropping everything off at BL's house, and lead singer was heard to comment, "I think we need to have a word with (BL) about all this stuff..."

So, I think that wheels have been set in motion for some pressure to be put onto BL. However, we'll need to work on his son - the drummer. 

Steve

 

 

[EBS_freak]

I need to stop reading this thread. It's making me too angry.

[leftybassman392]

24 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

I had the chance to speak to the drummer as we went out for pizzas. As I suspected, he's very happy to have his electronic drums through the rear speakers.

Me: "Don't you find the stage too noisy?"

Drummer: "No, I'm used to much more volume than this"

Me: "Why can't you go through the front speakers?"

D: "Because they're poor quality, and my electronic drums sound crap through them"

Me: "We could put the new Yamahas out front - they're full-range, aren't they? - and put everybody through them. Use whatever floor monitors are necessary, and dispense with the Mackies and the sub completely. What do you think?"

D: "I'm not sure the speakers would cope with that. My bass drum and your bass would surely interact. And, I like to feel my bass drum. Remember that we're aiming for a lush, full sound."

Don't like to say I told you so, but... well... I did. In any normal band the drummer would have been told to take a hike with this attitude. In this band he's the band leader's son so don't expect much to change any time soon.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by leftybassman392

[la bam]

As i thought - youre using an electronic drum kit, but completely ruining its quick and easy set up by building its own pa around it to replicate it sounding like a normal kit, and thats what causing the issues. You certainly dont need the sub for the drums behind the drums. You should be using that for front pa if anything. That leaves x2 speakers at head high level at the back - get them off the stands and on the floor as monitors to be shared by everyone so they can hear the kit and thats immediately a much better set up.

 

As an aside, your band leader (albeit with the best intentions) is heading for a big fall with this set up. Hes building a great big backline sound but what happens when the room os much bigger and you need more through the front of the pa.

Its almost a non pa set up - where everything is just being used as backline. Definitely not the way to do it, not practical, adaptable or helpful.

He should be putting that amount of effort into building a brilliant big sound through the front pa, not backline. That way when more volume etc is needed you just turn the front pa up and it doesnt affect your volume on stage. Whats he going to do when the room requires much more volume? Turn the whole backline up and deafen everyone?

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by la bam

[lurksalot]

Get the drummer to sit on his own sub , he'll feel it and then ditch the rest of noise fest 

[mike257]

1 hour ago, solo4652 said:

 "I'm not sure the speakers would cope with that. My bass drum and your bass would surely interact. And, I like to feel my bass drum. Remember that we're aiming for a lush, full sound."

This, right here, is going to be your problem, as I suspected. The drummer can't deal with not having the vibe and the volume of a real kit. Seen it with loads of people who try to move to "silent stage" setups. 

You should be aiming for a lush full sound at FOH for your punters, yes. He's aiming for one right in his ears so he can enjoy sounding like a rock god. 

I'd be putting the Yamaha rig, tops and sub, up front, ditching the Mackies and running wedge mixes for you all. Much quieter stage, same big full sound for your punters, you don't go home with sore heads. Quicker to set up and less to carry. Only person who "loses" is your drummer, because he's more interested in how it sounds to him on stage than how it sounds to your audience, and how practical it is. I think that's your biggest problem.

Half decent IEMs and a Porter & Davies throne setup would possibly help him get over it, but he'd have to put his hand in his pocket!

[mike257]

Also, if it's genuinely taking from 5pm to 8:30 from starting load in to being ready, that's insane. One of our regular clients is a soul band that goes out as anything from a five to a ten piece. That usually has subs, tops, three ways of wedges plus IEM mixes, everything miked, and a bit of basic stage lighting, and goes out with one tech. Once the gear is loaded in to the room, that setup is built, cabled up and soundchecked in under an hour every time. You definitely shouldn't need 3.5 hours build time to make a pub gig happen! 

[FinnDave]

If the drummer has to carry the kit and a PA round, what is the advantage over a regular kit? I tire very quickly of prima donnas who insist on having "their sound" on stage to the detriment of everyone else's. If any band member can't understand that the overall sound of the band is more important than what they personally sound like, I'd be getting rid of them or walking.

[EBS_freak]

5 minutes ago, mike257 said:

Also, if it's genuinely taking from 5pm to 8:30 from starting load in to being ready, that's insane. One of our regular clients is a soul band that goes out as anything from a five to a ten piece. That usually has subs, tops, three ways of wedges plus IEM mixes, everything miked, and a bit of basic stage lighting, and goes out with one tech. Once the gear is loaded in to the room, that setup is built, cabled up and soundchecked in under an hour every time. You definitely shouldn't need 3.5 hours build time to make a pub gig happen! 

Indeed, with IEMs, the monitor mix generally remains static - or at least in the ballpark - between gigs. Just recall the mix on the desk and you just have foh to worry with. Better still ditch all amps and you'll only have to eq for the room.

Drummers and guitarists. Always the pain in the donkey you can rely on.

[PaulWarning]

I not sure if this questions been asked (5 pages in) but why doesn't the drummer use a 'proper kit' sounds like he's trying to get the same vibe from an electronic kit as an acoustic one, sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees

[grandad]

We stopped gigging several years ago but I eventually settled on this setup which was plenty loud enough for a covers band in pubs and clubs.

Bass into backline.

2 guitars with pedal-boards and 4 mic's into a Yamaha EMX5016cf - 500W x 2 powered mixer into a of Pair EV Sx300, 12" - that's FOH. Great mixer the 5016, comes with feedback killer that works.

Electronic drums into channel 1 of a Roland KC150 then line out into the FOH mix. Once set, drummer does not alter the volume control on this, channel 1.

2 foldback wedges for the singers and guitarists from the mixer aux 1.

The drummer gets a foldback on aux 2, of the FOH mix minus the drums into the monitor channel, channel 4, of the KC150. This is not fed back to the mixer via the line out. So he has complete control over what he hears, he can adjust his mix between his FOH and his drums without affecting the FOH mix by using his overall master vol and the channel 4  monitor volume controls.

Reading back it sounds a bit complicated but if you have an amplifier with a dedicated monitor channel as a monitor for the drummer it makes life a lot easier when trying to please everyone wrt their stage sound. Only channels 1,2 & 3 are connected to the line out, channel 4 is just to the internal speaker.

If any more volume was required, e.g. outdoor events, them a couple of powered extension speakers were used.

The most important thing about this thread is to consider hearing damage. My hearing is permanently impaired now and I regret not having had more know-how regarding protection. The situation as described sounds like a nightmare. I still encounter deluded folk who think they know how to set-up a mix. With the wealth of information freely available there's no excuse not to educate yourself in the task at hand, and experience and trial and error should lead to a good working level of expertise.

Best of luck.

 

[lemmywinks]

Two and a half hours for setup is nuts, we're done in an hour every time. I think your drummer needs to buy himself a decent full range monitor or use in ears.

[KingPrawn]

8 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

I need to stop reading this thread. It's making me too angry.

😂😂😂

The drummer needs to learn a bit about complimentary frequencies. He would find it so much more comfortable going through the pa. have a look at these. There great for understanding how to eq instruments and where their frequencies cross over. 

https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixing-mastering/eq-cheat-sheet/

[grandad]

2 hours ago, KingPrawn said:

😂😂😂

The drummer needs to learn a bit about complimentary frequencies. He would find it so much more comfortable going through the pa. have a look at these. There great for understanding how to eq instruments and where their frequencies cross over. 

https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixing-mastering/eq-cheat-sheet/

Useful article, thanks.

 

[solo4652]

Our gig for tomorrow night has been cancelled - singer has just rung in sick. That's a real shame because band leader was talking about trying a new PA setup - quite what, though, I don't know. Our next gig isn't until June, so we'll have the chance to try out new things in rehearsals - as long as everybody agrees. 

 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, solo4652 said:

Our gig for tomorrow night has been cancelled - singer has just rung in sick. That's a real shame because band leader was talking about trying a new PA setup - quite what, though, I don't know. Our next gig isn't until June, so we'll have the chance to try out new things in rehearsals - as long as everybody agrees. 

 

Probably speakers in the audience facing back at the band so you can hear yourselves. Or something equally as daft.

[lemmywinks]

4 hours ago, solo4652 said:

Our gig for tomorrow night has been cancelled - singer has just rung in sick. That's a real shame because band leader was talking about trying a new PA setup - quite what, though, I don't know. Our next gig isn't until June, so we'll have the chance to try out new things in rehearsals - as long as everybody agrees. 

 

Probably some outside the box maverick idea like PA facing the audience and monitors firing at the musicians?

[EBS_freak]

12 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

Probably some outside the box maverick idea like PA facing the audience and monitors firing at the musicians?

How did this clown get in here?

 

What is this nonsense?

[KingPrawn]

5 hours ago, solo4652 said:

Our gig for tomorrow night has been cancelled - singer has just rung in sick. That's a real shame because band leader was talking about trying a new PA setup - quite what, though, I don't know. Our next gig isn't until June, so we'll have the chance to try out new things in rehearsals - as long as everybody agrees. 

 

Treat with caution. You could be wearing a PA Jacket. Or speaker hats !!

[lemmywinks]

39 minutes ago, KingPrawn said:

Treat with caution. You could be wearing a PA Jacket. Or speaker hats !!

I'm picturing this with a drum kit sat next to it: