Does my pub band really need 4 PA speakers?

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, BassBunny said:

I've worked with lots of drummers who used electronic kits and most used either a back line amp themselves and monitor for choice of mix or 2 monitors. One for the drums and one with an overall mix for the fallbacks.

Foldback

[rushscored4]

27 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Depends on the kit and the amp - this isn't necessarily true for all.

I'm sure it's not necessarily true for all but it certainly sounded terrible on the launch night of a large new Irish pub in the Printworks in Manchester! 

[skankdelvar]

As a sidebar: the top-mounted control panels on Voxes and old-style Fender amps are labelled in such a way as to be viewed from behind the amp, the idea being that in the old days one placed them at the front of the stage and stood behind them. Plug in a mic and your 'backline' AC30 becomes your FOH. Which is kind of the reverse of what the OP's bandleader is doing with the PA.

 

[Dad3353]

10 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

As a sidebar...

Those amps are open-backed; almost (but not quite...) as loud from behind as in front, so the player would clearly hear what was going on. Built-in foldback, in a way. 

[Lozz196]

13 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Those amps are open-backed; almost (but not quite...) as loud from behind as in front, so the player would clearly hear what was going on. Built-in foldback, in a way. 

I read that Dan Hawkins of The Darkness has - or had - an AC30 in his set-up, and he faced it backwards, as that way it was the same volume as his Marshalls, front-facing it was much too loud. This could have been one of those Darkness Jolly Japes of course, but I reckon they were being factual.

[BassBunny]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Foldback

Yep, one of those as well. Need to put brain into gear before typing.

[JapanAxe]

The setup described by the OP is not entirely without precedent in my experience. I can think of 2 ensembles that ran a similar setup - neither:

(1) 6-piece functions band that put their electronic drums through a second PA, with a pair of cabs sitting either side of the drummer. That band was so loud that that the guitarist was obliged to run two 100W half-stacks in order to compete.

(2) Rock covers duo consisting of a singing guitarist and a singing bass player. Instead of backline amps they ran their instruments through amp simulators into a PA behind them. I think their backing tracks went through both PAs.

I considered both to be nuts, just as I do the OP's band leader.

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I read that Dan Hawkins of The Darkness has - or had - an AC30 in his set-up, and he faced it backwards, as that way it was the same volume as his Marshalls, front-facing it was much too loud. This could have been one of those Darkness Jolly Japes of course, but I reckon they were being factual.

Oh the phase, the phase!

And to think some guys on here are anal about their speaker placement.

[mcnach]

7 hours ago, jazzmanb said:

Well how loud they play is how loud the play .Wouldn't expect someone to tell me to stop hitting the strings so hard or to hit harder

 

eh?

dynamics...

You probably don't expect to be told because... you'd adjust as required. Drums do have a volume knob control, and it's called a  drummer.

[solo4652]

I have a suspicion that our drummer quite likes having his electronic kit firing out from behind him. He's a very accomplished double-kick rock drummer and is egged-on by our Malmsteen-loving (prog) rock guitarist, and UFO-fan lead vocalist when he (drummer) gives it the two-foot bass drum treatment. I'm left standing there shaking my head and mouthing "You noisy b**stards" at them. They giggle at me. I suspect the band leader is under some pressure to go large with the PA and volume from these 3 individuals. The drummer is his son.

My gig timetable for today: go to rehearsal room at 4 o'clock to help load all the PA stuff, electronic drums, monitors, lights, into cars. Drive about 4 miles to the venue and unload, and help set up. Guitarist and singer have been asked to arrive by 6-30 to get their kit in, and sound check done. Show time is 8-30. After gig, help with breakdown, take stuff to band leaders house, go home. What a faff.

[leftybassman392]

4 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

The drummer is his son.

That could be your problem right there; it would certainly explain the current setup.

I can't help thinking that a mixer with more auxes and a decent set of IEMs instead of the duplicate PA for the drummer would serve everybody's needs rather than just his.

[pete.young]

19 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I read that Dan Hawkins of The Darkness has - or had - an AC30 in his set-up, and he faced it backwards, as that way it was the same volume as his Marshalls, front-facing it was much too loud. This could have been one of those Darkness Jolly Japes of course, but I reckon they were being factual.

Here's a clip of the late, great Roy Buchanan doing just that, with what appears to be a Fender Twin Reverb. What fantastic tone! Skip the first minute.

 

[Woodinblack]

19 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I read that Dan Hawkins of The Darkness has - or had - an AC30 in his set-up, and he faced it backwards, as that way it was the same volume as his Marshalls, front-facing it was much too loud. This could have been one of those Darkness Jolly Japes of course, but I reckon they were being factual.

He has one AC30 backwards (because it is too loud) which is miked up and feeds the PA. The marshal stacks are for show

[pete.young]

40 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

 He's a very accomplished double-kick rock drummer

In a pub party band doing soft rock/pop, soul, funk?

I'd be running away at this point. If he was truly accomplished he'd realise that double-kick is totally inappropriate for any of these styles.

 

[lemmywinks]

1 hour ago, solo4652 said:

I have a suspicion that our drummer quite likes having his electronic kit firing out from behind him. He's a very accomplished double-kick rock drummer and is egged-on by our Malmsteen-loving (prog) rock guitarist, and UFO-fan lead vocalist when he (drummer) gives it the two-foot bass drum treatment. I'm left standing there shaking my head and mouthing "You noisy b**stards" at them. They giggle at me. I suspect the band leader is under some pressure to go large with the PA and volume from these 3 individuals. The drummer is his son.

My gig timetable for today: go to rehearsal room at 4 o'clock to help load all the PA stuff, electronic drums, monitors, lights, into cars. Drive about 4 miles to the venue and unload, and help set up. Guitarist and singer have been asked to arrive by 6-30 to get their kit in, and sound check done. Show time is 8-30. After gig, help with breakdown, take stuff to band leaders house, go home. What a faff.

Why are you the one turning up early to help cart all this junk around? It's bad enough you have to suffer through this dual PA nonsense let alone being the one carrying it all! I hope your gig doesn't involve stairs. If band members want to live through some infantile rock fantasy then the least they can do is load the equipment in and out of the van.

I know it might be a futile effort but have you mentioned in ears to them? 

[jazzmanb]

15 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

eh?

dynamics...

You probably don't expect to be told because... you'd adjust as required. Drums do have a volume knob control, and it's called a  drummer.

i'm not saying some drummer just play flat out all the time  but some drummers "loud" is louder than others .Its a natural thing .

[mcnach]

35 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

i'm not saying some drummer just play flat out all the time  but some drummers "loud" is louder than others .Its a natural thing .

 

Only the same way some guitarists need to play loud to get 'their' tone. They do not 'need' to, they want to. Same with drummers.

[solo4652]

1 hour ago, pete.young said:

In a pub party band doing soft rock/pop, soul, funk?

I'd be running away at this point. If he was truly accomplished he'd realise that double-kick is totally inappropriate for any of these styles.

 

I'm not saying he double-kicks on all songs! He can, and does, pull back when he needs to. However, with Hush, You know my name, You're all I have, Feeling Good (Muse), Learn to Fly - things can get pretty, errrrm, frantic.

Edited April 7, 2018 by solo4652

[solo4652]

47 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

Why are you the one turning up early to help cart all this junk around? It's bad enough you have to suffer through this dual PA nonsense let alone being the one carrying it all! I hope your gig doesn't involve stairs. If band members want to live through some infantile rock fantasy then the least they can do is load the equipment in and out of the van.

I know it might be a futile effort but have you mentioned in ears to them? 

Well, because I try to be helpful and a good band-member. Also, I live close to the rehearsal room (and tonight's gig venue), while the lead guitarist and lead singer don't.

[lemmywinks]

57 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

Well, because I try to be helpful and a good band-member. Also, I live close to the rehearsal room (and tonight's gig venue), while the lead guitarist and lead singer don't.

Being a good band member works both ways though, hopefully your band leader can rectify your on stage sound. 

[Bluewine]

On 4/6/2018 at 08:07, EBS_freak said:

Depends on the kit and the amp - this isn't necessarily true for all.

We had a drummer that would ( without asking anyone) show up at gigs with an electric Roland kit. We asked that he not use it. The sound was awful.

He was a good drummer and ownen several high end kits. Unfortunately there were other disconnects and he eventually left the band.

Blue

[EBS_freak]

36 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

We had a drummer that would ( without asking anyone) show up at gigs with an electric Roland kit. We asked that he not use it. The sound was awful.

He was a good drummer and ownen several high end kits. Unfortunately there were other disconnects and he eventually left the band.

Blue

Depends upon your kit as to whether the sound is awful. If you took away the visuals and titles of this video and you had just the audio... I would say it would have most people fooled.

If it doesn't, I would wager, that this is hundreds of times better sounding than the woeful micing jobs that I've heard on the circuit. Of course, this sound can be had at low volumes too.

There's a lot of snobbery about digital stuff - whether it be modellers or electric kit... but those were the ideas of 20 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I like analogue kits, especially nicely miced and processed - as long as the room is big enough to take them of course. Oh... and lets not forget that electric kits don't tend to look very "rock n roll"... but thats why you get a set of Jobecky shells.

[M@23]

Our drummer uses an electric kit for a decent percentage of our gigs. Most of the time we all use in ears. We have a quality PA and I don't think anyone has ever argued drums sounded weird. 

But we have had several compliments about the mix and overall volume, which in smaller venues can be an issue. No matter how good a drummer is with technique and groove, if they're too loud, it's a bad gig. For me, anyway, as a player or punter. 

[mike257]

7 hours ago, solo4652 said:

I'm not saying he double-kicks on all songs! He can, and does, pull back when he needs to. However, with Hush, You know my name, You're all I have, Feeling Good (Muse), Learn to Fly - things can get pretty, errrrm, frantic.

The more I learn about this band, the more it just sounds like a musical nightmare full of people indulging their inner rockstar daydreams. None of those songs have got any business being double-kick fests either. I feel you may be on a hiding to nothing trying to get sensible behaviour from this lot!

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Depends upon your kit as to whether the sound is awful. If you took away the visuals and titles of this video and you had just the audio... I would say it would have most people fooled.

If it doesn't, I would wager, that this is hundreds of times better sounding than the woeful micing jobs that I've heard on the circuit. Of course, this sound can be had at low volumes too.

That is quite a long way from budget though isn't it?