No Backline?

[radiophonic]

Not sure whether this should go in 'Amps' but it's about the exact opposite.  I'm playing in a Shoegaze / Dreampop band and the guitar player uses an interface, laptop and the inevitable FX500 but no backline at all - just stereo outs in to the PA. Since he's already doing it - meaning we'll need a proper PA to gig, I was wondering about going the same route. Presumably all I need to do is plug my board into a DI box? A bass amp is just a personalised monitor anyway and no engineer will ever stick a mic on a bass cab, no matter how much it cost... Anyone doing it and are there any downsides that I haven't considered? 

[LukeFRC]

you're going to be pointed to look at...

• Line6 helix
• Zoom B3n when you remark at the price of the Helix
• a bundle of top end separate pedals for the folk that don't recommend the amp modelling route
• a sansamp
• someone will pop up telling you how good their Behringer DI is. It probably is. 
• the IEM thread

and probably some others. 

[radiophonic]

I have a Behringer DI already! Why would I model a bass amp? Every gig I've played has involved the engineer taking a DI. At best they are getting the very simple pre-amp (Hartke - so  just an old Fender tone stack with one 12AX7) and I run it flat. I'd have thought that the desk and PA speakers have way more effect on your FOH sound than any fancy DI pedal. Bass players have very little control over their sound really. 

[Trueno]

Regarding the OP, I think it's a great opportunity to give it a try. The only potential problem would be decent monitoring, but as the guitarist is already down the backline-less road, I imagine you'll have that covered. Also seems a good opportunity to go for IEMs.

[radiophonic]

I figure if the monitors are good enough for the guitars, they will be good enough for bass and most of the band only ever hear the bass though monitors anyway. IEMs seem a likely move. The drummer wants to incorporate some electronics and the singer hits some very high notes and doesn't want to leave anything to chance.

[Trueno]

Electronic drums and IEMs... the stage will be the quietest part of the room... heh! heh!

[Cat Burrito]

My Jump Blues / Rockabilly 3 piece just sees the guitarist going through the PA via a multi effects unit using some slapback echo. I plug my bass guitar through the PA direct and only use an amp for the upright. It sounds fine. To be honest if we had an extra channel I'd gladly stick the upright bass through the PA too.

[BigRedX]

It will very much depend on the sorts of gigs you play, but don't rely on the venue's monitors for bass. IME most of them (unless you are playing somewhere of a decent size like Camden Underworld) do a very poor job, and every other instrument you put through them looses clarity for the other instruments so of which like vocals have no alternative to monitors. Certainly the last time I played in a band with no backline, we ended up getting our own monitoring system for the instruments so that the in-house PA monitors could be used just for vocals and led to everyone in the band having a much better on-stage mix.

And you are quite correct in saying that you don't need to model a bass amp - an amp is just some tone-shaping circuitry bolted onto something that makes the signal loud enough to drive speakers - which is why the Helix is worth a serious look, as there is no requirement to use any of the amp or cab models in the signal path. Having said that IME some of the EQs in the amp models seem to be more effective on the bass than the stand alone EQ modules.

In addition to the sources mentioned by LukeFRC I'd suggest that you also have a look at the FRFR thread in the amps section. I've recently ditched my two big traditional bass rigs for a Helix and an RCF745 FRFR which I use in it's "monitor" configuration. I've only done one gig with it so far, but that was a big success as far as myself and the rest of my band were concerned.

[cheddatom]

I play in a heavy/noisey band doing weird instrumental metal. I have a Behringer BDI21 at the end of my pedal chain and just DI that and tell them to turn it up in the monitors. We're not playing little pubs though

[stingrayPete1977]

2 hours ago, radiophonic said:

I have a Behringer DI already! Why would I model a bass amp? Every gig I've played has involved the engineer taking a DI. At best they are getting the very simple pre-amp (Hartke - so  just an old Fender tone stack with one 12AX7) and I run it flat. I'd have thought that the desk and PA speakers have way more effect on your FOH sound than any fancy DI pedal. Bass players have very little control over their sound really. 

The good thing here is that you're already past the "but it's part of my tone" hurdle, you'll enjoy losing the amp and cabs I reckon, I've no idea what shoe gazing is never mind dreampop but ampless will be good for it no doubt! 

[radiophonic]

1 hour ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

The good thing here is that you're already past the "but it's part of my tone" hurdle, you'll enjoy losing the amp and cabs I reckon, I've no idea what shoe gazing is never mind dreampop but ampless will be good for it no doubt! 

Well style-wise, think Cocteau Twins to My Bloody Valentine to Seefeel. In practice this means a lot of signal processing and some quite extreme frequencies - sub bass and wide filter sweeps for starters. This would seem to make a PA a more suitable and robust transducer than a regular bass amp, particularly at high volume.

[ead]

In my last band I gigged with no backline.  Bass into a simple pedal board with tuner, micro thumpinator, DI box and to the PA.  Bass put into the monitor nearest me.  Worked fine.

Current band much the same but I now have a small rig acting as a monitor as we have less wedges!

Only thing I'd mention is think about a mute switch somewhere in the chain (tuner maybe) so you can do stuff off line without being heard.

[Lozz196]

Depending on monitoring it works fine, I did it with my Zoom B3 in my old band. I also found a lot of sound-people more than happy with this as there was less bleed from on-stage volume. Only downside is if you`re relying on venues sound systems for the monitoring, if not up to the job then you`re left with a difficult situation.

[FinnDave]

I started thinking seriously about going DI only after my most recent gig where I used my SansAmp with one output to the power amp section of my Ashdown head and the other to the PA. There would have more room on stage and less gear to carry up and down the external iron stairs in the rain!

[mckendrick]

I haven't used an amp/cab for eight years.   Jazz Bass > pedal board > Sans Amp > PA

[Cat Burrito]

22 minutes ago, mckendrick said:

I haven't used an amp/cab for eight years.   Jazz Bass > pedal board > Sans Amp > PA

I'm just in the process of doing an entire album with my Sansamp - arguably the best bass sound I've ever had! 

[discreet]

10 hours ago, radiophonic said:

Bass players have very little control over their sound really. 

Yes. Good job it's all in the fingers. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by discreet

[mckendrick]

Done it, Cat....    and with great results everytime. 

[Phil Starr]

Coincidence, I went on to put up a thread about going naked, and here one is

We gigged on Sunday with my occasional duo. Beer festival where we were on last, the previous guy was still playing when we arrived and the place was packed, Little time to set up and minimal soundcheck and we were stuck in an alcove next to the smokers escape route on one side and the gents on the other. Tight enough space that people kept knocking into my bass which didn't enhance my timing. On top of that the acoustics were awful and we couldn't really hear the backline. Three songs in the landlady had a complaint about noise and asked us to turn down so we lost whatever balance I'd achieved earlier.  We survived and the audience seemed to enjoy themselves but grrr....

So Monday was spent setting up with no backline, I thought my mate would spit his dummy out about his guitar 'sound' but he'd found that gig as stressful as I did and was happy to give it a go. I like to keep things simple live, so we went for using the same monitor mix as the audience mix. To be honest it was total bliss. The bass sounded great through the monitors, acoustic guitar was the best sound ever and thanks to a G1XON so did the few electric guitar parts. BV's were so much easier to judge when you know what the audience are hearing too, I can sit in just under the lead vocal with confidence now. With the mixer sitting between the monitors we can fix everything immediately and turning volume up/down needs just one twist of a knob. 

So what gave the great bass sound? Bass straight into the mixer and two Behringer 1320D floor monitors. 

[mckendrick]

Good job, Phil.  

[mrtcat]

No backline here. Whole band on iems and both me and guitarist using helix. The helix is overkill to an extent but I love it live and its also currently acting as my iem preamp. 

[BigRedX]

There is a difference in the suitability of doing this between bands who have their own PA and bands that use the PA in the venue; and I suspect that the OP is most definitely in the latter category.

If I was playing in a band that always used its own PA system I'd have no hesitation in ditching my backline provided that the FoH was up to the job of properly amplifying the whole band and the monitoring system could deliver all the instruments clearly.

However, for at least of 3rd of the gigs that I've done in the last ten years, either the venue PA and/or monitoring was completely inadequate for anything other than vocals. These gigs are fine with backline, but can be a terrible experience for both the band and the audience, as the band struggle to hear themselves and the audience is presented with a less than impressive FoH sound. And I certainly wouldn't want to risk using an unknown PA for a band that used acoustic drums and no backline.