MONITORS.

[tom1946]

HI all, just starting out soooo... do I need active monitors or will passive be ok?

thanks.

[BigRedX]

All active and passive mean in terms of monitor speakers is that active monitors have the amp built in to the speaker enclosure. Therefore if you go for passive monitors you'll need a separate amplifier to drive them.

Edited April 10, 2018 by BigRedX

[Skol303]

^ Absolutely correct.

The main benefit of active monitors is convenience. If you already have a suitable amplifier then passive monitors are perfectly fine. In fact, a pair of hi-fi speakers is also fine if you have some available and want to save some money (as was my own set up for a few years).

Bear in mind that your monitors will only be as good as the acoustics of the room you're using them in. If you're not ready to install acoustic treatment - and I imagine at this stage you're not - a good pair of headphones may in fact be a better option, especially if your room is small and/or square-shaped.

If you have a budget in mind, let us know and we can make some suggestions.

[Leonard Smalls]

7 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

The main benefit of active monitors is convenience. 

Not necessarily!

Decent active monitors have the advantage of having a channel of amplification per driver, with optimised protection circuitry for each, and the amplifier is optimised for the driver rather than 1 channel having to drive everything through a crossover.

So a fully active speaker , with no passive crossovers and lossy stuff like that is usually better sound quality than a similar passive.

However, a cheap active won't necessarily have any of those benefits - a cheap and probably coloured home hifi speaker is likely to be better. But you (mostly) gets what you pays for...

[Skol303]

33 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Not necessarily!

Decent active monitors have the advantage of having a channel of amplification per driver, with optimised protection circuitry for each, and the amplifier is optimised for the driver rather than 1 channel having to drive everything through a crossover.

Good point! I hadn't considered that.

34 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

But you (mostly) gets what you pays for...

...and this is always very true

[SeeBread]

1 hour ago, Skol303 said:

In fact, a pair of hi-fi speakers is also fine if you have some available and want to save some money (as was my own set up for a few years).

 

Bear in mind that Hi-Fi systems are designed to give the best end user or music consumer experience. Therefore, they usually accentuate highs and lows as well as often adding their own 'colour' to the sound. In contrast monitors are designed to give a completely 'flat' or 'honest' sound so that you can mix as effectively as possible.

Hi-fi stuff is fine for starting out but IMO even relatively cheap entry level monitors far outstrip hifi gear when it comes to the process of producing your own music just by what they're designed for. 

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, SeeBread said:

Hi-fi stuff is fine for starting out but IMO even relatively cheap entry level monitors far outstrip hifi gear when it comes to the process of producing your own music just by what they're designed for. 

Also not necessarily true...

Some hifi gear is incredibly flat - frinstance my Leema Xavier hifi speakers (designed by a chap who used to be a BBC sound mixer, then worked at Air Studios) have about +/-0.5dB variation between about 35-20KHz, which is quite a lot better than my Adam A7s which are more like -2dB at 800Hz... And they'll do 28Hz at -3dB. Though to be fair the rrp was about 3x the Adams, and I stick a serious hifi version of a studio amp up 'em (Bryston 14bsst).

 

[SeeBread]

4 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Also not necessarily true...

Some hifi gear is incredibly flat - frinstance my Leema Xavier hifi speakers (designed by a chap who used to be a BBC sound mixer, then worked at Air Studios) have about +/-0.5dB variation between about 35-20KHz, which is quite a lot better than my Adam A7s which are more like -2dB at 800Hz... And they'll do 28Hz at -3dB. Though to be fair the rrp was about 3x the Adams, and I stick a serious hifi version of a studio amp up 'em (Bryston 14bsst).

 

Good point, but I'd still say that for that the enthusiast starting out, with monitors you can be a lot surer what you're getting without having to dive into the reproduction specifics of your own hifi gear, which like you say varies. 

[Dad3353]

44 minutes ago, SeeBread said:

Good point, but I'd still say that for that the enthusiast starting out, with monitors you can be a lot surer what you're getting without having to dive into the reproduction specifics of your own hifi gear, which like you say varies. 

Monitors alone, without a suitable environment, will be just as unsure as HiFi stuff. They give of their best in the conditions for which they were conceived. Having them without that environment is not worth the difference, I'd say. A good headset, then, later, a decent home studio environment, then monitors. That's the sequence required.
Monitors will work, of course (I have a pair staring at me right now...), but I know darned well that they're no better a guarantee of fidelity than my headset, the way they're set up. I snapped up a bargain in buying 'em, but I'm not fooling myself. 
It's a question of priorities. No harm in investing in decent monitors; just don't imagine that the sound coming from 'em is 'true', 'cos it ain't, without the rest.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Dad3353

[Skol303]

10 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Monitors alone, without a suitable environment, will be just as unsure as HiFi stuff. They give of their best in the conditions for which they were conceived. 

Spot on.

Your monitors are only ever as good as the acoustics of the room. And so there’s no point spending significant money on monitors without spending at least the same amount on acoustic treatment.

It’s also worth noting that when manufacturer’s quote a ‘flat’ frequency response, they are most lying. Well, sort of… in that they’re usually quoting a flat response as measured in an anechoic chamber or other unnatural environment. I’ve seen measurements of fairly typical mid-price monitors in domestic rooms and the frequency response is rarely flat, especially in the low end.

None of which is especially relevant to tom1946... because as I understand it, he just wants to have some fun making music and doesn't need to invest any time/money beyond that. In which case, pretty much any 'half decent' set of speakers will do the job if accompanied by a good pair of headphones - and that would be my recommendation in this case. With practice, you can get your mixes 90% of the way there with even the most basic set up (including just headphones). And it's always the final 10% or 5% that soaks up your budget and leads to significant diminishing returns. As 51m0n said in another post, it's a slippery slope!

PS: for reference, here's a typical frequency response measured in an untreated domestic room. In fact, this one is far from the worst I've seen. Note the big frequency dip of approx -20db between 80-100Hz. Listening on monitors, most kick drums would sink without a trace into that dip and you'd be tempted to crank up the EQ to try and compensate - which would cause the same frequencies to boom when played elsewhere. Every domestic-sized room will feature this same dip somewhere in the low end between 60-150Hz or thereabouts (it's caused by phase cancellation, due to the boundaries of the room). Just something to bear in mind next time you're tempted to believe that your monitors are anywhere near 'flat'.

[SeeBread]

Interesting insights,  thanks guys. I am only speaking from personal experience of mixing on hifi gear vs mixing on monitors so it's interesting to get some more scientific approaches to it, and I totally agree with you on the headphone and acoustic treatment points. I'm no pro producer so obviously take my advice in this area with a degree of suspicion, but I have gone through the process of starting out and developing a home studio so thought my experiences might relate to OPs query 

[Skol303]

1 hour ago, SeeBread said:

Interesting insights,  thanks guys.

You're very welcome and rest assured you're in good company here as nearly all of us are enthusiastic amateurs, rather than audio professionals. So all opinions and insights are perfectly valid.

Personally speaking I'm very much a hobbyist, but with a strong inner nerd that enjoys scratching away at the detail

[Mornats]

My living room where I mix my music is a real pain. I've got bass lulls all over in the double-figures in db! What I've found is that my studio monitors (Yamaha HS7) have little bass in most of my room and my hi-fi speakers which are stuck in the worst position are fine. I can mix better on my hi-fi than I can on my monitors and it's down to room acoustics (and the fact that my hi-fi speakers are sealed so they don't use the bass port which I suspect is what's killing my Yamahas).

So yeah, what Dad (not my real dad) said above about going for a good headset > room acoustics > good monitors is spot on in my opinion.

[tom1946]

Can I just reiterate that I have no need at the moment for excellence in anything I'm doing, I just want to set up a means of recording stuff that's in my head onto my Mac. I don't need anything amazing until I know what I'm doing and if I get sick of doing it I don't want to be lumbered with a lot of expensive gear.

My setup as of today is:

A 27" Mac

a Focusrite 2i2 interface for guitars etc'

An M-Audio mini 32 keystation

Headphones. and Garageband.

My Mac speaker is bypassed and is now connected to a tower thing that plays all kinds of sticks and cards as well as acting as my mac speaker.\At the moment the only sound off my bass which I have just recorded a test line is coming through the headphones, but I want to hear it through speakers as well, so does my wife. 

How do I connect the machinery so the sound comes out of my main speaker? There are 2 monitor outs on the 2i2.

Told you I'm not very good with this stuff.

Edited April 12, 2018 by tom1946

[Leonard Smalls]

How much d'you want to spend?

Presonus are always very good value as well as being surprisingly even handed...

[tom1946]

Would these do the job ok? 

https://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Mackie-CR4-Multimedia-Monitors-Pair/1312

[Skol303]

30 minutes ago, tom1946 said:

Would these do the job ok? 

Short answer: yes.

I don’t have any experience with the CR4s myself, but based on some brief Googling I think you’ll struggle to fine anything better at that price. The closest competitor seems to be the KRK Rokit RP4 at double the money.

Pros: Mackie are certainly a reputable company and the CR4s get positive reviews (4.5/5 on Thomann from 130+ users). I used to own a pair of Mackie MR8 MkII monitors that were great. The CR4 seem cheap, cheerful and convenient. They’ll certainly let you and Mrs tom1946 enjoy your music... see how I’m being optimistic about the enjoyment bit!  

Cons: You won’t get a very satisfying low end out of the CR4s - they’re quoted down to 70Hz - but you can compensate for that using headphones. And you definitely won’t be getting “Studio-quality design, sound and performance” for £100, as quoted in the marketing blurb... but you know that, for sure.

In all, I think they’ll be fine for what you need. Buy ‘em.

[xgsjx]

My monitor purchase has been placed on hold until I sell the house (it's going on the market in the next few days), so for mixing, I use a pair of Superlux HD 668B headphones.  For just listening, I have a pair of Creative T20 PC speakers, which are actually pretty decent for a cheap set of speakers.

If you've got a decent pair of headphones, I found a Youchoob channel that does speaker sound comparisons.

https://www.youtube.com/user/skubny

Well worth checking out.

It's worth going & listening to the songs they use so you can get a comparison.

[tom1946]

Thanks guys, although I like bass (of course!) they would do for now.

However, late last night I realised that my output was set to headphones .  so I changed it to computer and now the sound comes through the tower that has 2 6" woofers in it. Great but no stereo separation.

Schoolboy error....

Onwards and upwards, thanks to all.

[lurksalot]

1 hour ago, tom1946 said:

Thanks guys, although I like bass (of course!) they would do for now.

However, late last night I realised that my output was set to headphones .  so I changed it to computer and now the sound comes through the tower that has 2 6" woofers in it. Great but no stereo separation.

Schoolboy error....

Onwards and upwards, thanks to all.

Oh, you'll have a fair few of those moments as you progress , and if you are anything like me , give it enough time and you'll have the same problem again and will have forgotten how you sorted it 

[bazzbass]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 05:07, tom1946 said:

Can I just reiterate that I have no need at the moment for excellence in anything I'm doing, I just want to set up a means of recording stuff that's in my head onto my Mac. I don't need anything amazing until I know what I'm doing and if I get sick of doing it I don't want to be lumbered with a lot of expensive gear.

My setup as of today is:

A 27" Mac

a Focusrite 2i2 interface for guitars etc'

An M-Audio mini 32 keystation

Headphones. and Garageband.

My Mac speaker is bypassed and is now connected to a tower thing that plays all kinds of sticks and cards as well as acting as my mac speaker.\At the moment the only sound off my bass which I have just recorded a test line is coming through the headphones, but I want to hear it through speakers as well, so does my wife. 

How do I connect the machinery so the sound comes out of my main speaker? There are 2 monitor outs on the 2i2.

Told you I'm not very good with this stuff.

OK easily solved  

Yes use the two monitor outs from the 2i2

Depends on what inputs are on that tower speaker.

If it has 2 RCA inputs, you just need two mono 1/4 inch to RCA cables (or a stereo cable)

If it has just a 3.5mm stereo jack,  a cable with two 1/4" one end and a 3.5mm plug at the other end like this  https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-CMP-303-inch-Interconnect-Cable/dp/B000068O3G

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by bazzbass