Improving Analogue Octaver tracking

[radiophonic]

I'm having some tracking issues with my octaver and I'm trying to pin down the source of the problem before spending any money. Signal chain is usually Stingray -> Boss BC1X Comp -> Okto Nojs. They make a big deal out of the tracking, so this is pretty frustrating. Tracking is OK down to at least open A. However it glitches like crazy around the 5th - 7th fret on the G string. It simply will not lock at all on the 6th fret C#.  I'm wondering if this is the fabled weak G on the Stingray coming into play (I don't notice it playing clean), dead spot (ditto), roundwounds producing too many harmonics (it's fine at 12th fret though and even open), active electronics coupled with the pickup position, something else or combination of all of these. Removing the multiband comp doesn't seem to make a difference - I did wonder whether I was popping the harmonics a bit, but that seems to be a dead end. So do I just buy a P-bass and stick some flats on it?  Answers on a postcard please...

[dannybuoy]

Try plucking further up the neck. Also is there any string buzz at all throwing it off?

I don't get glitching around that area of the neck with my P & flats, but I play higher up the neck on the lower strings just because it sounds fatter. So even if you managed to get rid of the glitching, if you find it sounds better being played in the higher position, then you should do that anyway, which gets around the original problem!

[lee650]

Every bass and every octaver I've owned warbles out on the C/C# on the G string incl fenders/musicman/warwick/spector/yamaha/Ken smith. Even with a compressor in front. Wasn't there a device you clip onto the headstock (fatfinger) which moved the dead spot?

It may well be just me,but yeah playing those notes higher up on the D doesn't do it

[radiophonic]

10 minutes ago, lee650 said:

Every bass and every octaver I've owned warbles out on the C/C# on the G string incl fenders/musicman/warwick/spector/yamaha/Ken smith. Even with a compressor in front. Wasn't there a device you clip onto the headstock (fatfinger) which moved the dead spot?

It may well be just me,but yeah playing those notes higher up on the D doesn't do it

Looks like the FatFinger is still available - I remember it now.  Although I assume the description on amazon is a translation....

"I give mass to the neck by attaching to the head base, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, FENDER FATFINGER BASS fat finger fat fingers, gives the rich sustain. You do not need any special tools to install the fat finger. In addition, a portion sandwich because it is covered with felt cloth, do not hurt the instrument unnecessarily"

 

[EliasMooseblaster]

1 hour ago, radiophonic said:

 So do I just buy a P-bass and stick some flats on it?  Answers on a postcard please...

It's either that or you bite the bullet and invest in an 8-string...though your left hand's tendons may hate you for it.

[radiophonic]

Has anyone tried the fatfinger? The fail I'm getting seems to be textbook Fender behaviour. It would be an easy fix if it works. 

[Quatschmacher]

6 hours ago, radiophonic said:

Signal chain is usually Stingray

Therein lies your problem. I had similar problems using my Sterling and the Okto Nojs. Best solution is to use a P bass or Jazz bass on the neck pickup or similar. I don't have any issues using those.

[fretmeister]

My ray doesn't have a problem.

 

Mind you, my ray doesn't have the MM pickup in it either!

[ped]

You can simulate the effect of a fat finger by putting the headstock against a wall when playing. See if that helps first. 

[radiophonic]

1 hour ago, ped said:

You can simulate the effect of a fat finger by putting the headstock against a wall when playing. See if that helps first. 

I wondered about a g-clamp and some foam. It's just about increasing the effective mass of the headstock to shift the resonance, right?

 

[ped]

5 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

I wondered about a g-clamp and some foam. It's just about increasing the effective mass of the headstock to shift the resonance, right?

 

That would work too. Yes that’s all it is. 

[Al Krow]

Dug out (and have updated) a review of various octave pedals I've come across in my travels, which included the Okto Nojs and discussions around glitching, which may be of interest...

Octaver Comparison Review

In relation to octavers the key things I'm looking for are: 1) authentic clean blend octave down to fill out my sound; 2) ability to track both (i) fast (minimal latency) and (ii) low without glitching; 3) play nicely with my dirt and filter pedals.

I've managed to A/B a number of octavers and here's what I found (YMMV, IMHO):

MXR vs TC Sub N Up
These two pedals are good at tracking: both managed to get down the F# on the E string (and the Sub'n'Up perhaps lower). There was the tiniest bit of latency on the digital TC whereas the MXR felt completely 'tight' in typical analogue fashion. But the voicing on the MXR left me pretty non-plussed and I couldn't get that 'clean' octave down tone I really like on my COG T16. Whilst the TC Mini is COG T16 sized, I think the greater flexibility of the full size Sub'n'up (for a newbie to Tone Print editors) makes it a better initial choice  (assuming space on pedal board permits).

I also found that the MXR to have a very sensitive and consequently noisy circuit, which I personally found off putting - not least in that we often rehearse in railway arches and the train line electromagnetic fields amplify any inherent circuit noise.

The other 4 analogue pedals

COG T16 gen 2.0 doesn't have the Aggie's tone control. But for what I'm needing it for it does a great job and it's tiny, taking very little space on a pedal board. 

Aguilar Octamizer. Vocal range was synth to growl. It has excellent clean blend with tone control. Lovely at what it did, but struggled to track down well much below a B above the E string (which is too high up the scale for me - you can get that low simply by playing a 5 string!)

Both the COG and the Aggie sat really well with other pedals and the 'glitching' when they failed to track was significantly less noticeable on these two (than Emma and 3Leaf) with the Aggie edging it on this particular test.

Itch fully now scratched in relation to:
Third: Emma Okto Nojs (nice additional dirt, but I guess somewhat superfluous if you already have a dirt pedal, which I do)
Last: 3Leaf Octavbre Mini (ok that surprised me too!)

Both these last two had very noticeable glitching on lower notes when they failed to track (particularly the Octavbre Mini) and neither 'sat' nearly as well with dirt or filter pedals as the Aggie or COG.

Conclusion

For a clean octave down and sitting well with my other pedals the COG T16 is doing a grand job. It doesn't track as low as the MXR or the TC SnU but I prefer the clean octave down on the T16 (I appreciate that's a personal choice).

 

Postscript EHX Pitchfork vs Boss PS-6 - short review

This tracks well, down to the open E without glitching. Result!

Minimal latency for a digital pedal: perhaps a touch worse than the TC Sub n U in monophonic mode in that regard - but the EHX doesn't glitch like a trooper below an Ab like the SnU does when the SnU is on monophonic setting. Latency is slightly more noticeable on octave up than octave down, but I think that is just down to octave up being easier to discern aurally. However there is a difference in tracking latency as compared to the sure footed 'vice like grip' of my analogue COG T16 which is still the most authentic and enjoyable sub octave down that I've yet found. The COG and other analogue pedals don't provide an octave up and the COG does start to glitch below an A (on the low E string). So swings and roundabouts, I guess!

I like the 'true' clean blend the EHX offers, and I also like (by digital pedal standards) the 'authentic' non-synthy octave down (I'll get all the synth sound I want from my dedicated filter pedals). The 50% blended clean plus octave down is just a lovely, rich, full bass line and will likely be my main setting for the pedal. 

The ability to adjust settings on the fly trumps this over the SnU for me as a 'live use' pedal. It doesn't have the granularity of interval adjustment  and wider functionality that the Boss PS-6 offers or the degree of fun pitch shift on the PS-6, but the pitch shift is still very usable on the EHX. The Boss was also built very solidly - as Boss pedals so often are. But I just couldn't get around the noticeable latency on the Boss where the octave up, in particular, felt like two separate notes; which is why I moved it on. Conceptually the PS-6 is a great pedal (and I can understand why a recording pro guitarist took it off my hands). If Boss manage to address the latency issue on a PS-7 model I would definitely get one.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Al Krow

[radiophonic]

@Al Krow Thanks for the update.  I think the dirt options on the Emma are a bit undersold though. The gated fuzz has a sub-harmonic blend too - very meaty even without the octaver engaged and the gating gives a very different sound to a standard fuzz. I have this and a Pork Loin and a Bitcrusher/SRR and use all three for different things. Something like an Aftershock would be the only way I'd replace it simply.  I sort of agree about the PS6, but I'm keeping mine for the +3 octave and the 3 voice harmoniser. I tend to use this stuff with some delay anyway, so the latency is less of an issue.  The other one i have lurking around is a Digitech Bass Synth Wah and TBH, the straight octave down isn't bad - in any sense - and I tend to use it at home quite a bit when I'm working things out. For £45 it was well worth the effort. Ironically, I find it to be useless as an envelope filter though!

[Al Krow]

Yup, you could do worse than a SA Aftershock  

Btw £45 is a very good price for the Digitech Bass Synth Wah - there's one currently in the FS which has been reduced to £70...if it was going for £45 I'd be tempted to buy it too!

Edited April 26, 2018 by Al Krow

[radiophonic]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Yup, you could do worse than a SA Aftershock  

Btw £45 is a very good price for the Digitech Bass Synth Wah - there's one currently in the FS which has been reduced to £70...if it was going for £45 I'd be tempted to buy it too!

Based on Facebook gear groups and ebay etc., I think 45 - 55 is about what they really sell for.  People ask for more, but I'm not sure they go.  I wouldn't have paid 70 for one. The basic filter setting is bobbins for starters. 

[Quatschmacher]

25 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

I think the dirt options on the Emma are a bit undersold though

That is true. What isn’t mentioned is that it runs parallel to the octaver so it’s an octave higher than if one were to run dirt into an octaver. 

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

Based on Facebook gear groups and ebay etc., I think 45 - 55 is about what they really sell for.  People ask for more, but I'm not sure they go.  I wouldn't have paid 70 for one. The basic filter setting is bobbins for starters. 

Interesting. If the basic filter on the BSW is pants, what's the point of it (if you have a decent octaver already)?

[CameronJ]

FWIW I’d say the market value of BSWs is more in the region of £50-£60. I bought and sold mine for £60 each way with little struggle. 

There are several great sounds within it. I wouldn’t recommend it for someone primarily looking for a basic filter sound though as that’s almost definitely the least exciting setting on the pedal!

[dannybuoy]

Prices have pushed up a bit since they were discontinued a year or two ago. People that don't frequent forums and just sell the odd pedal on Facebook are slow to catch on to things like this though hence why they often go for cheaper than places like basschat!

[Dave Vader]

4 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Prices have pushed up a bit since they were discontinued a year or two ago. People that don't frequent forums and just sell the odd pedal on Facebook are slow to catch on to things like this though hence why they often go for cheaper than places like basschat!

I saw one for £100 in a second hand shop and did a double take the other day.

I got mine on here a couple of years ago for £20.

I will now never ever sell it, excellent pedal

[radiophonic]

5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Interesting. If the basic filter on the BSW is pants, what's the point of it (if you have a decent octaver already)?

The synth and formant settings are quite useable (settings 3 and 5 specifically) and - for some reason - the filters in these modes aren't bad. In fact I really like setting 3 with the sensitivity set so the filter is on the edge of triggering under normal playing - you can get some really responsive dynamic filtering. I'll keep it for that at least. It's just the plain envelope filter is really anaemic. 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, radiophonic said:

The synth and formant settings are quite useable (settings 3 and 5 specifically) and - for some reason - the filters in these modes aren't bad. In fact I really like setting 3 with the sensitivity set so the filter is on the edge of triggering under normal playing - you can get some really responsive dynamic filtering. I'll keep it for that at least. It's just the plain envelope filter is really anaemic. 

Well you got me looking into this further - thought this was actually quite a good review of the BSW pedal

11.58 'If you're getting this pedal to get an incredible synth tone, I would not recommend it...but it gets the job done for a $90 pedal that also has a pretty decent octave down sound and a couple of good envelope filter sounds'. 

That's pretty fair. 

But I'm with you -  I didn't think the synths in the BSW were that bad (certainly for the money); I could certainly imagine using them live with my band and / or for use in recording - and those are the only 'real' tests  that matter for me

Well we have truly derailed your thread, but as it's your thread... 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Al Krow

[tonyxtiger]

So... again I would agree analogue octavers glitching on the 5/7fret range of a G string is common. Don’t feel bad about that. The Octo is a good tracker but the more a builder concentrates on tracking, it can effect the sound in other ways. I think all are a trade off. That’s said there is no one type that fits all. Digital ones track great but to me sound awful. 

Some work better with a comp in front, some don’t. Playing style, string guage, pickup position all play a part. If you have to change too much, move it on for something else. 

The odd bit that glitches will probably only bother you, I’ll bet no one in the band even notices. 

[radiophonic]

9 hours ago, tonyxtiger said:

The odd bit that glitches will probably only bother you, I’ll bet no one in the band even notices. 

Unfortunately, the big intro to one of our songs involves an octave down filter sweep, played into a delay and held for 2 bars. If that glitches, EVERYBODY notices! Although that's more of a technique issue really and to fair to the Okto, even open A usually survives that kind of demand. I do sweat a bit during that bit though.  

[tonyxtiger]

Aah, fair enough. That would be stressful. 

The COGs have a huge amount of sub volume on tap. I’ve found even playing higher on the neck for stability can still yield pretty massive bass depending how you have the sub filter set.

that might work. I’ve also found some analogue ones will crap out on a held note unless there’s just a tiny bit vibrato going on to sustain it .

I use a COG and an Eventide so I have both analogue and digital. Analogue before dirt, digital after. Works best for me.