Strange clarity/definition issue at Jam night, anyone else had similar experience?

[markdavid]

Had a strange issue the other night, not looking for answers to the issue but  was wondering if anyone here has experienced similar. 

Went to a Jam night the other night, first time in a while so was quite looking forward to it, house band started the evening, sounded good, bass player had a fairly warm tone dialed in which suited the music well. 

I went up to play and as is usually the case at Jam nights not knowing what songs we were going to be playing but not worried as I have a fairly good ear, I never fiddle with another bass players amp settings so left the eq etc as it was.  My lack of worry turned to horror when I plugged in and during the song realised I had no definition, no clarity to the point were the pitch of my notes was not discernable, my tone was just boomy mush, in spite of this and in spite of turning in a terrible performance because of this I enjoyed the night but the next one I go to I am definitely taking an eq pedal lesson learnt , just goes to show how different basses can sound so different from each other

 

[Hellzero]

Using active set-up with a passive bass could be an answer, even if you don't want one. And it's very fair from you not to modify other bass players amp set-up : that's so rare.

[bassjim]

My last experience of this was turning up at a birthday party in a pub thing. I'd agreed, for the good of the all,  to play a couple of numbers with my band at the time plus jam a bit with some others. I had with me just my passive bass and a tuner. The typical practice room bass amp on offer sounded ok with the previous chap from the back of the room although he did look concerned throughout his bands performance.

 I found out that once we got playing,  it (the bass amp) insisted on distorting if I turned up so I could hear myself over the drums.  Unlike you I did 'fiddle' with it out of desperation with no luck, and it really did have an impact on my ability to deliver a decent effort.  Folks that knew us as a band and individual musicians ,that were not musicians who may have understood , thought i was having an off night. Which thanks to the pile of stinky poo of an amp, I was.  

Personally if the situation was a decent amp but just not my preference, I would ask the owner of the amp if it was ok to set it flat or if it had a eq defeat button use that and turn it up and hope for the best.

[musicbassman]

I've had exactly this issue recently with a band I'm depping with - it's all straightforward 60's covers but line up includes two guitars plus keyboards, drums, bass, vocals - we've been squeezing onto fairly small stages lately and this means I have one of the guitarists amps right next to my bass rig. Both guitarists are very very loud and the drummer is possibly the loudest drummer I've worked with in a while - result is that I really have a problem hearing myself  - but roadie says bass is plenty loud enough out front. I'm having to work by eye on the fretboard sometimes rather than my ears!

The bass tone is very nice when isolated, so that's not the issue - quite a bit of the bass is pick playing also, so I think there's plenty of definition there. Maybe it's just having the guitarists amp so loud and so close that it's dominating what I can hear, and maybe you were in the same situation?

Next gig I'm going to raise my cab up about 40cms by putting it on a heavy box I have  - I'm hoping this will help a bit. Top of the cab will then be chest height rather than waist height as at present.

[uk_lefty]

I often find that I need to be quite far away from amps, particularly using Ampeg fridges in rehearsal rooms, otherwise I can't hear them at all if I'm too close. For my gigging set up I need two cabs partly to get one of the cabs at the right height for me to hear it too!

[discreet]

If you have an amp directly behind you firing into your calves it may be OK out front but you won't hear it. You don't have to have your amp facing front - if it's placed away from you somewhat and facing you (and the drummer) you'll have a much better chance of hearing what you're doing - especially if you can find a way to tilt it back a bit.. The audience will still hear you, don't worry about that.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 26, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[markdavid]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

Yep, going from out in the room, where you're in a position to hear the full frequency range of the sound, to right on top of it could make it seem much darker by comparison. Not to mention that there is a good chance that by climbing on stage you are getting closer to room boundaries and corners which reinforce low frequencies, so the sound you were attuned to from 'out there' could have been very different where you were playing. It can work the other way to, oddly- an amp which sounds thin and crispy on stage can fill a room nicely elsewhere, and rooms can introduce nulls in the frequency response too. As far as any of that is concerned at a gig, you are generally at the mercy of where your position is in that particular space.

However, I saw your thread on the Labellas! Followed the link back here in fact.

Two really important facts missing from this thread- you were playing the Höfner, right? Also with tapewound strings? If that is correct, I'll bet the other guy was using something rather different! Höfner's rep for being nothing but thump machines is a tad unrealistic, but they are pretty warm and thumpy in the big scheme of things. Certainly notably different to the average Fender type with rounds and I'm not surprised in the least that you had a bit of an issue.

EQ would very likely have saved your derrière that night, and as noble as it seems not to touch anyone's EQ, presenting a Höfner with "I'm playing this, do you mind if I put a bit more top end on for the next couple of songs?" Would probably get you permission for a quick tweak. The real issues with EQ flipwittery are cranking volumes or low end, which can damage an amp, or changing things and walking away without putting them back. If you can very quickly assure them you know what you plan to do and why, and that things will be as they left them the minute you finish, you have a good chance of a green light. At the risk of getting overly long winded, a cut to the lows could be just as productive as adding anything further up, what with that pickup right by the neck, but we're not talking about a situation where going into much detail is good use of time!

So to sum up, assuming that is the case, and to partly answer your other thread, don't bin off those strings based on this experience. They were in a situation that was likely never to work well, so play them and the bass where they can be set up to do their job properly. Some folks don't like EQ touched at all, but there is no harm in asking. I am in the house band for an open night and provide the amp, I don't want too much hassle but I want everyone to have a good time playing, and for the music to sound good all night. If someone is cool about it and can at least hint that they know what they're doing, them I'm all for it. If I wasn't, helping host a busy jam night might be the wrong gig for me! And finally, if you are after a minimum of hassle or communication, then bring a more standard bass to a gig like this. A non standard sounding bass will always be more problematic than 'the norm' in this kind of situation, no matter how great it may sound when set up with its own suitable EQ.

Good points raised here, the other guy was using a jazz bass also with tapewounds but his bass seemed noticeably lower output than my Hofner (when I went on I turned the volume knob on my Hofner down to about a quarter way up ) so not only was he using a bass with single coils but I would guess the pickups not being as hot would have a brighter tone.  I think next time I am definitely going to bring an eq pedal as the low end on Hofner's is huge and I would bet that a bass cut and a bump in the mids would have really helped in the situation.

[Phil Starr]

I'm thinking room acoustics rather than your bass was the problem, that and unfamiliarity with the gear. It's surprising how much processing our brains do which we are unaware of. Playing our own gear with our own bands we don't need to hear much to know what is going on, jamming with strangers in an open mic, well you just need more to work with. 

You said the sound out front was good for the other bassist, chances were it was OK out there for you too. There just isn't time or opportunity at this sort of thing to get out front or even to move around much, you were probably jammed into a corner right on top of the cab with it pointing at your knees, possibly with a low ceiling just to compound things. The trouble is there are enough mids but they aren't coming your way. If you re eq and adjust your volumes then all you will do is make the mix right where you are but wrong for everyone else. Get someone else whose ears you trust out in the audience to tell you if it sounds ok. If possible try tilting the cab back to point at you or try to move further away from the cab to capture more of what the audience are hearing.

[MrDaveTheBass]

Unless they do something stupid, like set everything to 11, I don't have a problem with people adjusting my EQ settings when they borrow my rig. After all, that's what they're for - to make whatever instrument/player/style sound the best that it can. When borrowing an amp on stage, it can be useful to take a photo of the owner's EQ settings so you can easily set them back to how they were when you've finished your set.

[discreet]

On 26/04/2018 at 10:06, discreet said:

If you have an amp directly behind you firing into your calves it may be OK out front but you won't hear it. You don't have to have your amp facing front - if it's placed away from you somewhat and facing you (and the drummer) you'll have a much better chance of hearing what you're doing - especially if you can find a way to tilt it back a bit.. The audience will still hear you, don't worry about that.

Er... by which I mean a side placement firing across the stage, not with its back to the audience. Just to be clear. Doh. 

[markdavid]

Just an update, went to the Jam night at the same place last night, I changed my strings to TI Jazz flats as the tapewounds I had on I have just found to be too muddy sounding.  Brought my eq pedal and applied around -10db of cut on the lows and around 10db of boost in the mids as my bass is quite low end heavy, worked like a treat and my bass was clear and easily heard, still with plenty of low end.