Yet another ruined gig due to the mix.

[leschirons]

Are there any sound engineers out there that actually know what a band should sound like? I've just experienced a bass drum that can be heard on Jupiter and a bass frequency that  makes the audience feel sick?

What is it with this "how loud and low can you go?"

Just got back from seeing Walk off the Earth and Rag'n'bone man. Two great bands, but a complete waste of time. 

WOTE, couldn't hear even one of any of the other instruments on stage. They may as well have been miming. All down to the bass drum.

Rag'n'bone man, drums under control but the bass (a four string) sounded like it had only one string, a low F#. Couldn't clearly discern one note.

[dannybuoy]

I wonder if the bassist for RnBM is the same chap that posted this recently - turquoise Jazz per chance?

 

[T-Bay]

Had similar at a recent feeder gig, it was terrible. The guitars could only be heard on the sections where the drummer stopped. Otherwise it was just boom boom boom for two hours.

[spectoremg]

Crazy isn't it and a rightly frequent topic on here. If you had any other frequency ridiculously high in the mix people would think you were mad. 

[MoonBassAlpha]

20 minutes ago, T-Bay said:

Had similar at a recent feeder gig, it was terrible. The guitars could only be heard on the sections where the drummer stopped. Otherwise it was just boom boom boom for two hours.

You sure you weren't at a Baldrick poetry recital?

[FuNkShUi]

48 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

I wonder if the bassist for RnBM is the same chap that posted this recently - turquoise Jazz per chance?

 

It is. Bill is an incredible player

[thepurpleblob]

I think it's a "thing" these days. The bass drum has to be pumped up to plaster-removing levels. 

It's probably just "sound engineer fashion". In the industry I work in almost nobody can think for themselves either ;-)

Edited April 26, 2018 by thepurpleblob

[Al Krow]

I had this on one gig at a regular venue we play at, on a 50s and 60s set of all things! A less sub heavy genre I can't think of! I've since made it very clear to the sound guy that our 'sound' is not sub-woofer heavy for either of the bands (the other is more modern) and he could cut back on the ridiculous amount of bass compression he was using whilst he was at it! We've had a much better more balanced sound since.

And there was me thinking that sound engineers were the experts, compression was a dark art, and we mere musicians should leave it entirely up to them. I now make sure I'm out front during sound check and using good old fashioned ears! To be fair to the sound guys at this particular venue, they do actually listen to what we're saying. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Al Krow

[Huge Hands]

There are some sound engineers that are experts, and there are a lot that don't have a clue what they're doing.

In my experience of doing FOH engineering, there could be a couple of reasons for this:

The venue has a "sweet spot" where the engineer is, but you're stood near subs so don't get a proper representation of the mix.

The touring engineer has a stored mix that he/she should be tweaking to suit the venue, but hasn't for whatever reason

The engineer is incompetent...

I know that when I did it, I was based in a venue with an underpowered PA.  When we eventually got some budget to put a decent PA in there, it did take a little while to adjust to not just want to blow the roof off with my new sub power....  

My complaints were more around bass than kick drum though...

[mikel]

Yep, so many gigs ruined by by the BD that sounds nothing like a bass drum. Its odd that pro drummers go to extreme lengths to get the drum sounds they want. Un drilled Bass drums, chosing just the right batter and rezo heads, choice of pedal beater material, fine tuning. Then the sound guy makes it go OOOM OOOM OOOM. Cant think of another instrument where the musician would put up with having his signature sound ruined by a third party. Dance music fair enough, but for almost every other genre it simply spoils the music.

[PaulWarning]

don't play many gigs with a FOH PA but when we do I make sure I've cut everything below 100hz off my bass signal and ask the sound engineer, very politely, to go easy on the bass drum.

I've been banging on  for ages about sound engineers obsession with the bass drum, oh yeah, and they hardly ever have the lead vocal loud (clear) enough either, if you don't know the song you won't have a clue what they're singing about

[Huge Hands]

9 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

...oh yeah, and they hardly ever have the lead vocal loud (clear) enough either, if you don't know the song you won't have a clue what they're singing about

Sometimes though (not saying in your case as I don't know the facts) you have a small venue with a nice PA but then the bass player turns up with an 8x12 and/or the guitarist has a Marshall stack on 11 and/or the drummer only knows to hit to a point where he breaks 2 pairs of sticks in a song.  In those cases, the PA system that is probably perfectly suited to the venue becomes redundant, and people start moaning at the engineer (who is also now pretty redundant) that they can't hear the vocals over the racket.  I get that people have "their sound" but there always needs to be a compromise on both sides to make the gig work.

Having said that, rightly or wrongly, the profession tends to standardise with setting up the drums first, starting with the kick drum.  I have seen so many poor engineers spend half an hour setting up the kick drum to the point where the PA is going into clip, then as they're running short on time, try and quickly squeeze the rest into the mix without backing the kick drum off when the PA is already maxxed out.  

[PaulWarning]

4 minutes ago, Huge Hands said:

Sometimes though (not saying in your case as I don't know the facts) you have a small venue with a nice PA but then the bass player turns up with an 8x12 and/or the guitarist has a Marshall stack on 11 and/or the drummer only knows to hit to a point where he breaks 2 pairs of sticks in a song.  In those cases, the PA system that is probably perfectly suited to the venue becomes redundant, and people start moaning at the engineer (who is also now pretty redundant) that they can't hear the vocals over the racket.  I get that people have "their sound" but there always needs to be a compromise on both sides to make the gig work.

Having said that, rightly or wrongly, the profession tends to standardise with setting up the drums first, starting with the kick drum.  I have seen so many poor engineers spend half an hour setting up the kick drum to the point where the PA is going into clip, then as they're running short on time, try and quickly squeeze the rest into the mix without backing the kick drum off when the PA is already maxxed out.  

I agree with you about certain members of the band turning up to loud in small venues, but how often does the sound engineer ask them to turn down? not often enough, like you say they just turn everything else up to distortion levels to try and compensate.

A sound engineer I got to know used to turn up anyone who was too loud really high in their monitor, that usually got them to turn down

[Huge Hands]

1 minute ago, PaulWarning said:

I agree with you about certain members of the band turning up to loud in small venues, but how often does the sound engineer ask them to turn down? not often enough, like you say they just turn everything else up to distortion levels to try and compensate.

A sound engineer I got to know used to turn up anyone who was too loud really high in their monitor, that usually got them to turn down

If only life was that simple.  You're talking about one guy/girl in a venue who has probably never met the band before v 3-6 mates who can't even address volume issues with themselves, let alone listen to a total stranger.

You will get comments like "all sound engineers are @resholes" but you have to be quite strong, direct and thick skinned to do it, otherwise soundchecks turn into chaos while guitarists widdle for 2 hours and lead vocalists chat up the barmaid. - and you might still have another 3 bands to check.

I have lost count of the times I have pleaded with guitarists to turn down, to think of the gig, but they start staring into space and continue ragging their rig because it is their sound.  I'm only glad I never had to do FOH for Jimi Hendrix! 

I used to have few tricks up my sleeve too, like making monitors feedback, turning monitors off etc, but only in extreme cases of someone being an @rsehole themselves.  Ultimately, stupid games like that only affect the gig, and the man with the mic has the ultimate power of being able to slag you off mid gig, whether you deserve it or not.  

What we all have to remember is sound is subjective.  What sounds better to me might be totally worse to others.  This is why bigger bands tend to find engineers they agree with and stick with them/take them on tour. Not a luxury most of us get.

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

I've been banging on  for ages about sound engineers obsession with the bass drum, oh yeah, and they hardly ever have the lead vocal loud (clear) enough either, if you don't know the song you won't have a clue what they're singing about

That's a biggie for me - I like to understand the singer, not just hear them. I always want our vocals loud & proud, if there can only be one loud & proud thing in the PA then it has to be the lead vocals, not the darn bass drum.

[mikel]

Two things. Firstly, If the backline is too loud for the venue then why pray is the backline being mic'd up?  If a band cant find a stage balance that suits the music, through many hours spent rehearsing, then they cant call themselves competent musicians.

Secondly, unless its an instrumentals band the vocals are the most important part of the sound. With or without a full on FOH rig, get the vocal volume right and work the rest of the instruments from there. If you pay for a rig and a sound engineer then if he/she says one of the instruments stage volumes is too loud then accept it.  Its a band, and the overall sound is what matters.

[mike257]

9 hours ago, T-Bay said:

Had similar at a recent feeder gig, it was terrible. The guitars could only be heard on the sections where the drummer stopped. Otherwise it was just boom boom boom for two hours.

Was it Brixton by any chance?

[CameronJ]

1 hour ago, mikel said:

Two things. Firstly, If the backline is too loud for the venue then why pray is the backline being mic'd up?  If a band cant find a stage balance that suits the music, through many hours spent rehearsing, then they cant call themselves competent musicians.

Secondly, unless its an instrumentals band the vocals are the most important part of the sound. With or without a full on FOH rig, get the vocal volume right and work the rest of the instruments from there. If you pay for a rig and a sound engineer then if he/she says one of the instruments stage volumes is too loud then accept it.  Its a band, and the overall sound is what matters.

This x1000

[T-Bay]

22 minutes ago, mike257 said:

Was it Brixton by any chance?

No, Birmingham, was Brixton bad as well?

[Huge Hands]

1 hour ago, mikel said:

Two things. Firstly, If the backline is too loud for the venue then why pray is the backline being mic'd up?  If a band cant find a stage balance that suits the music, through many hours spent rehearsing, then they cant call themselves competent musicians.

I've had many gigs where I've mic'd up guitar cabs and then had them turned off FOH - and the guitar is still too loud....

I'm not defending all sound engineers.  It would agree is a bit of a dark art, and I would (perhaps arrogantly) say I understand enough to be in the fairly good to good engineer group.  There are a lot of chancers out there that have no idea and just blindly fiddle with knobs without understanding or hearing what they are doing.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Huge Hands

[mike257]

1 hour ago, T-Bay said:

No, Birmingham, was Brixton bad as well?

I was mixing the support band in Brixton. Horrible bottom end in that room, you'd have been calling me all sorts for the way the bass sounded 😂

[Graham]

I'm at a gig now, 4 band bil - Converge, Crowbar, Thou and Grave Pleasures; it's at The Electric Ballroom in Camden.

Only Grave Pleasures have played so far, Thou are setting up now, but GP had a great sound. Could have done with a little more guitar in the mix, but overall very good.

I have noticed that since I started wearing my moulded ACS hearing protection to gigs, evetything has sounded better.

[mrtcat]

Go stand next to the mixing desk. If it sounds bad there then blame the engineer. If it sounds great there but terrible everywhere else then blame the venue. 

[BreadBin]

36 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

Go stand next to the mixing desk. If it sounds bad there then blame the engineer. If it sounds great there but terrible everywhere else then blame the venue. 

If it sounds terrible everywhere but the desk - still blame the engineer for not leaving the desk to check the rest of the venue. Every good engineer I know will check that the mix at the desk is representative, or get a trusted assistant to check for them if required. 

[billynoband]

Agree and have almost given up on watching gigs due to poor sound.I don't like to slag peoples jobs but most of the gigs I go to watch have a great stage mix when I stick my head over the monitors but when I stand anywhere else the kick drum and bass guitar drown everything else. This gets worse the further back you stand. Is this where the description drum n bass was born? Trouble is nobody I know complains.